Frame Help

Can you all help me value this frame or find it's origins? It strongly resembles some Frames from Husar I have; exact finish with gold over a red rub. Looks similar to Newcomb Macklin. No stamp but lots of #s on the back. Picked it up for $27 and I know it's worth a lot more than that; my Husar frames cost a pretty penny.
Someone went over it with a cheap water based paint that I'm removing with a sponge. I knew it was worth more than $27 so I picked it up. I removed the "organizer" inset. tomorrow I'm gonna take out the linen liner.

 

More Images. #s obviously represent the model of the frame and finished. It has the words "carved" written on the back also> It has the words "Alworthy" too.

 

Here is a closeup: the cheap paint someone covered it with is water based so it's coming right off with a sponge. Otherwise it's in decent condition, a few nicks. Removing the cheap paint will leave some of the gold paint gone and reveal the red underneath; so if you have any tips to restore the gold part that'd be nice too, thank you in advance.

 

See what it looks like when you finish removing the water-based paint. Sometimes the red showing through is very attractive. And, really, there isn't a substitute for gold

 

NEVER use water on a gold leaf frame even if you want to remove the painted surface. From your photographs, it doesn't appear to be gilded. It looks like wood underneath and that gold was a rub. If that had been water gilded or oil gilded, you would have already damaged the red bole and the gesso with the water. It will begin to crack and fall off in the months, possibly few years to follow. If it was oil gilded, you will need to leave it alone for several weeks and let the moisture dry out before gilding it again.

Post of photograph of the entire back of the frame and a close up of one of the corners from the back side. That might help ID it and the corner close-up will give a better indication as to how it was finished.

 

Thank you. I dont think it's real gold if that's what you mean. I am fairly certain it's oil based: How we began to notice we could remove the paint is we were using some alcohol on the back and water to take off the remnants of the paper backing that was glued. Some of the water ran on to the top edge when we tilted it and we noticed after a bit the paint was completely gone and the frame ok.

The front finish is down to the T exactly like a Husar I have in my house: it has the red bole and a gold rub on top.

Where it differs from my husar:

It has nails. None of my husars have nails that I can see. (I have 4 in my house).
It has nails holding the linen liner as well as the frame itself (holding it together and the inset in the larger frame).

The corners of this are finished at 90 deg angles. That said 3 of my 4 husars are finished this way. The 30 x 40 that I have carved is finished with corner pieces like newcomb macklin, I forget what thats called when the corner is it's own piece. The carved 16x20 from Husar is finished with 90deg angles like this. I also have a 20 x 24 Spanish style frame and a 24x30 frame with corners built up with compo from Husar, those both have 90deg angles too. He may just use that other finish on larger frames I'm not sure.
I also cant find this frame on husar's site which is why I dont think he did it.

It also appears to be frames with a smaller nailed in the larger. From the front you couldn't tell but from the back it appears that way. (see images)

My husband thinks the metal hanging hook looks old. The wood looks new to me but it could be in good shape b/c of the cover backing that was on it.
The frame itself is real heavy like the one I already own. I'd venture to say basswood like mine.

I know linen liners were a thing around the 50s so I'd guess the frame cant be older than that. I scrubbed the back more but I cant find any suggestion of a stamp from the maker unfortunately. I might find something on a lip inside once i get the liner out.

The scrawled cursive is the frame # and finish I assume, that's how husar marks on mine. It also says "carved" and "Alworthy", or at least that's what it looks like. My husband found a famous artist by that name and he actually had a painting in a frame that sold for a lot similar to this (a carved frame) but def not this frame.

Here's what I attached:
1. whole image of back of frame. Like the Hussar I have with this finish you can see the spray of the red on the back. It looks identical in how it was done.
2. closeup of corner finishing on the back. You can see the nails and glue. (you cant see any glue leaks on my Husars btw) Maybe that's characteristic of less professional finishing ... along with the nails?
3. the vertical line breaks in the finishing on front (these exist on my husar with this finish). It almost makes me think it was done in some sort of interval or with leaving sheets but I want to say Husar told me he rubs them, so maybe someone can tell me what they make of those lines.
4. closeup of the nicks and area where the gold rub or whatever it is was coming off down to the frame
5. closeup of front of corners: the one in good condition appears to have been finished to not show the joints
6. however another appears to have cracked probably with age. I suppose if I stripped the whole frame I could fix that with putty but I dont really want to do that.

thanks for looking. AS for today after letting it sit over night it looks great but just "dull" for lack of a better word from the other paint. I cant imagine that will improve. I was real light with the water use.

So now the main 2 questions
1. for future if I find a good water guided or gold frame with paint over how do you remove it?
2. how do I refinish this one? Where can I get a gold rub?

 

Truth be told, personally I'd leave it alone; I like the way it looks as it is. I've redone some post-WWII frames before with gold paints but those came from yard or estate sales and probably aren't legal to sell any more. A good art supply place might have an idea, or a really good frame shop.

 

Why wouldn't they be legal to sell, Ruth?

 

Carcinogens and the like; regulations on what's allowed in paint have changed over the years and some stuff I used back in the century isn't allowed any more.

 

Oh! The paint! I was thinking your reference was to the frames themselves.

 

Yeah we have an infant and my husband was concerned about lead in the paint! Most of the paint is off so I'm gonna go ahead and finish it. I'm not dead set on restoring it in any way beyond that, though it'd be nice to give it a little shine back however I may. I'd still love to know the maker and worth.

 

Thank you for posting the additional photographs. It definitely is not a Newcomb and Macklin. Their frames had a very distinctive construction in the corners. Your frame does not have it.

The crack in the corner on your frame is the gesso cracking. The lack of sharp edges around the corner of your photograph of the back, is also a clue that it was water gilded. That is caused by 5 to 10 layers of gesso and 2 to 3 layers of bole built up.

Gesso and bole are both made with rabbit skin glue. It is a protein and any moisture reconstitutes the glue. It doesn't matter that it was only "a little water". Eventually, most of frame will develop those cracks that you now see in the corners because of the moisture. It may not happen right away, but it will happen.

Mineral spirits will not harm the gold. Use Q-tips or cotton balls that are not too saturated. That sponge photograph made me cringe. Mineral spirits evaporate quickly and because it doesn't penetrate the gold, it won't harm the glue underneath it.

There are nails in your Husar frames. The nails are counter sunk and the holes are filled in and sanded down making the nails invisible. I think Husar always marked their frames.

Here is a photograph of the corner construction of a Newcomb & Macklin frame.

 

FYI - you can still sell those frames with nasty paint. Most of the antique and vintage frames that are not gilded, were painted with bronze powdered paint to mimic gold. Bronze powdered is about as nasty as it gets for carcinogens. If you are restoring or sanding old frames, do it outside and always wear a mask.

 

Thank you Mills Cove Treasures that's a lot of good information. I went back through and read Husar's site and the making process since it's been awhile. He actually explains the bole and leafing like you did, although his mentions it's not gold but copper and zinc alloy. The fact it's done in sheets I suppose is what causes the vertical lines in the finish that are on this frame and the one I ordered from him (the lines were there when it arrived new).

Hussar's process mentions the bole is sealed... would this protect it from water? How is the frame not damaged in the original water gilding process?

(I referenced his site since this frame is identical in finish I'd almost think he maybe did it or someone similar. The only other similar carved frames I've found are C&J but this pattern wasnt on their site either.)

Re the nails you're right husar also mentions nails. I'd think maybe the is a similar maker but less quality bc they allow the nails to show unless husar only recently started finishing them over and "hiding" them. Next time I do an order with him I'll drop him a few pictures and ask if maybe he thinks the frame is his from long ago. On that note he marks the back of his yes usually with a wood burning tool, but not all: note the inconsistencies below.

On my husars here's what I got in my house and the inconsistencies:
1. 16 x 20 carved frame. No wood burning or co marking. Typical corner joints
2. 20 x 24 spanish style frame. wood burning company marking. typical corner joints
3. 24 x 30 contemporary frame with compo build up on corners. No company markings on back, typical corner joints on back.
4. 30 x 40 carved frame. finish is exactly like this one I posted. backing has corners like your Newcomb Macklin and has Hussar marked with the wood burning tool.

did newcomb macklin have these inconsistencies in regards to company markings and corner finishes on the back?

Lastly thank you so much:

I enjoy antique framing but I'm just getting in to it. I've been watching for a few years at markets but this is the first time I saw something worthwhile that i picked it up. At least next time I wont ruin it with water

Any special place to get the mineral spirits or anywhere online is fine?
How much is a frame this size worth (26x31)? And what is the variation in price as I find them if it's been painted over or has water damage, etc. ?

 

Water gilding is very expensive and time consuming, it gives the illusion of solid gold because it can be burnished to a high shine. Oil gilded frames can't be burnished. If Husar is using alloys instead of real gold, they have to seal the metal or it will tarnish.

The initial water gilding is done with water but it has gelatin, denatured alcohol and rabbit skin glue in it. Once this is dry, any further water disrupts the adhesion and reconstitutes the base and it will crack and flake. Here is a Youtube video of the gold application and you can see where those lines come from.

 

Nice frame but I don't see any reason to believe this is anything too great. 50s or later seems right but the thin linen liner makes me think more 60s-70s than 50s. Tended to be a bit wider in the 50s. I also would leave it alone as I don't see anything too objectionable with the finish. Refinished frames generally look refinished since the process used to finish them originally can seldom be replicated.

As to your question about value, there are several variables. Where and how selling, foremost. It is an odd size, which hurts value. Consequently, the value is in its utility. If you can use this size, the price you paid is worth it. As for me, I probably would not have paid more than a few dollars for it. I pick up frames all the time in hopes I can use them down the road, only paying a premium for standard sizes.

 

I found a pattern on hussar's site that i think may be it. I'm gonna email him prob later this week. I'm a photographer, I sell Husar's frames and a carved frame this size from him new would run $500-$1000 wholesale, so it's def worth more than a few $, though would have been better if it hadn't had a poor job of thin water based paint on top.
I have a carved frame in a finish that matches this sized 30 x 40 and i paid around $1000 maybe a tad more after shipping, so I figure they'd hold some value over time. A quick browse of Ebay and smaller frames (of his) with nicks and bole showing are selling for $250ish. Larger ones up to $750ish
In terms of being an Antique, it may not be specifically worth anything in that respect however.
I'll prob remove the paint with mineral salts as best I can and put some artwork of mine in it and keep it around.
I've seen quite a few articles about how Newcomb Macklin and older antique frames are undervalued so over time I'm hoping to pick up a few of them here and there. I may get them from an online source however as opposed to local shops.
thanks for the video Mills Treasures and the info.

 

I'm surprised that they don't use real gold for those prices.