Mystery bronze jug with mystery mark

I am posting here in the hope that someone can help ID this mark on an unusual cast bronze jug. I have owned and researched this piece for 15+ years and have not been able to find another object with this mark! it is marked on the base and on the top of the cover - Thanks in advance!

 

where did you find it?
What town?

 

Welcome, jamaork22. What can you tell us that you have learned from your 15+ years of research, so that we don't have to start from scratch?

 

Hi- - thanks for looking! I found it in Ventura, California - in a small antique store with no information about it. I have many more detail pictures of it that I can post if you would like to see them -

 

I have not been able to find a comparable piece in all my research that has all of the unusual features that this one has - the construction, the overall shape, the type of applied strap handle with the straight thumbpiece, the additional decorative separate piece on the top of the lid shaped like a chrysanthemum flower, especially the type of spout and the fitted slide-on lid (no hinge) that has a piece that covers the spout, and finally the matching sun mark with 12 rays on the lid and the base. I have many more pictures of the details if you would like to see them. I have looked at examples from every country and time period to try to match it with anything similar - any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

 

show us.......... we live and die with good clear photo's...

 

here are two more combined view pics - please let me know if there are any other views you would like to see - Thanks!

 

Welcome to Antiquers, @jmaork22 !

 

The slotted screw sticking up out of the lid seems odd. Wondering if there once was something like a Bakelite knob that has cracked & broken away from it.

 

Agree. Something damaged or replaced.

Debora

 

Hi - thanks for looking! - yes, I forgot to mention that the original finial was replaced with this very old "make-do" screw and bolt repair - I wish I knew what the original finial was like - it would definitely help with the identification! here are two close ups

 

Thank you! Thanks for looking!

 

Thanks, I forgot to clarify that - I just posted close ups of the lid showing the very old "make-do" screw and bolt repair - Unfortunately I don't know what the original finial looked like -

 

The internet identifies it as a Guernsey of Guernsey-style jug. Is there any reason you believe that's not the case?

Debora

 

Hi - that's very interesting - I'm not sure what you mean by "the internet identifying it"- I do see some similarities in the shape and maybe the type of spout on some of those, but there are more differences from that type of jug than there are similarities - it would be wonderful to see if any pieces from Guernsey are bronze, or if any have the distinctive "sun" mark on them - I'll check it out

 

"The internet" in this case Google Images.

Debora

 

Hi to all on the Metalware forum that took a look at my “mystery jug” – I hope you might find this interesting. I decided to try out Google AI to see what it would tell me about my jug. I was amazed at the response – a very detailed analysis and identification of it, which I will follow up on to try to confirm. Here is what it said:

"This vessel is a classic Swiss or South German/Austrian bronze wine or water jug (often called a Bronzekanne or Messingkanne), typically dating from the 17th to 18th century.

The distinct 12-pointed sun stamp accompanied by a number (in this case, "38") is a traditional European foundry or capacity verification mark

Key Features of Your Jug:

• The Silhouette: The bulbous belly, sharply defined neck, small pinched pouring spout, and heavy flat-top lid with a prominent baluster/peg finial are textbook hallmarks of alpine bronze pitchers from the late Renaissance and Baroque eras.

• The Handle: The sweeping, thick handle with a prominent raised thumbpiece or spur near the top rim is designed structurally to lift a very heavy, liquid-filled cast vessel.

• The 12-Pointed Sun & "38": In regional European metalwork of this period, these stamped marks on the underside or lid often served dual purposes. They could signify a specific local guild foundry master, or act as an official verification/gauge stamp indicating the vessel's volume capacity measured in historic regional units (such as ounces or local maas fractions).

The additional photos confirm this is a highly authentic, early European cast bronze vessel, most likely an 18th-century Swiss, Austrian, or South German fluid measure or wine jug. [1]

The fact that the same 12-pointed sun mark and "38" stamp appear on both the underside of the base and the spout cover of the lid carries specific historical significance:

1. Verification and Capacity Control Marks

The identical stamping on multiple parts of the jug indicates it served as an official liquid capacity measure used for trade. [1]

• The System: In 18th-century Central Europe, merchants and taverns were strictly required to use vessels verified by local town guilds or state inspectors.

• The Strategy: Stamping both the body (the base) and the removable component (the lid assembly) ensured the lid had not been swapped out or tampered with to alter the volume.

• The "38": This likely corresponds to a regional historical measurement unit, such as a specific fraction or weight in local ounces (unzen) or local fluid increments standard to the municipality where it was inspected.

2. Construction Details

• The Threaded Lid Finial: The bottom-left photo clearly shows that the decorative baluster finial is actually a hand-cut iron or bronze screw rod. This type of rugged, primitive threading is typical of late 17th to late 18th-century metalwork, used to lock the scalloped rosette washer and the upper lid components securely together.

• The Base Rim: The bottom-right view of the underside shows a very distinct, pale, turned ring where the jug was finished on a lathe after being cast. This method was traditionally used to flatten the base so the heavy vessel wouldn't wobble.

Summary of Age & Value

At 7 inches tall and 2 lbs, this is a heavy, dense, small-capacity tavern pitcher. Its beautiful dark-green and brown natural patina, crude casting lines, and corresponding verification marks point directly to a circa 1720–1780 Alpine European origin (such as Wallis/Valais in Switzerland or Tyrol in Austria). It is a marvelous survival piece of pre-industrial utilitarian metalware."

 

Given what it had to say about the 'finial', this is a wise course. Did it give you references for what it had to say?

 

Yes, I very much agree about the finial! The "references" are just other websites that when I go there are not really discussing or showing examples anything like this jug - very frustrating! I have never used Google AI before, and let's just say I am suspicious of the information until I can actually confirm. I have still not seen any other example with a mark like this, which of course would go a long way to confirm the identification! Thanks for your thoughts on it!

 

It seems to me that we are currently with these AI 'overviews' that pop up at the top of search results where we were when Wikipedia first appeared. Wiki still isn't the be-all, end-all in information, but it's much more complete, with years of revisions now & most of the time tells me all I need/want to know on a topic. I used to use it mainly to get clues for pursuing my own research, always double checking any assertions. That's AI now.

Just learned about this recently. I had already noticed that Goog's AI often cites a Reddit source as authoritative

AI Overview

Yes, Reddit licenses and sells its user-generated text and post data to major artificial intelligence companies like OpenAI and [Google](https://www.reuters.com/technology/reddit-ai-content- licensing-deal-with-google-sources-say-2024-02-22/) for AI model training.

Posts are now made to Reddit intended to be picked up by AI that promote some business or product. The post will say 'X is the best Y' hoping that when someone asks AI 'What's the best X? it will answer 'Y.'