Are these busts the same?

Discussion in 'Pottery, Glass, and Porcelain' started by Gatoblanconz, May 6, 2020.

  1. clutteredcloset49

    clutteredcloset49 Well-Known Member

    All of the things you mention about the wrinkles, eyebrows, bags are there. Hard to see because of the lighting. And I played with the tone, color, etc., to try to get a better visual, kind of dulled some of the lines.
     
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  2. Christmasjoy

    Christmasjoy Well-Known Member

    Well .. the 'sold' bust looks like a determined and strong minded man, while the other appears to me to be soft faced and 'different' .. Not the same in my eyes !!! .. Joy.
     
  3. Gatoblanconz

    Gatoblanconz Well-Known Member

    Joy I agree that it looks like a different face when you first look at it it looks like a fatter version. However there is not a single individual detail that differs between the two that I can find. I thought that perhaps they may have had different variations of the head in different editions but then the lips eyebrows wrinkles hairline and every single curl exists exactly the same.
     
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  4. smallaxe

    smallaxe Well-Known Member

    If you took a photo with the light coming from the same angle as the other photo (mostly from above), I think they would look a lot more similar. Yours is lit more front on, which softens the look of all the features.
     
  5. Gatoblanconz

    Gatoblanconz Well-Known Member

    I am quite convinced they are from the same mould but I'm trying to find out more information about mine and gauge a value.
    I'm not sure if mine is the same quality of porcelain or whether or not again that's just an artefact of different photograph conditions.
    Also I'm interested to know if the price is anything anywhere near reasonable as I'm not finding too much evidence for that kind of pricing but I'm quite new to searching for prices of antiques and it's hard to find comparables.
     
  6. clutteredcloset49

    clutteredcloset49 Well-Known Member

    The value of something is what someone is willing to pay for an item.

    As I said earlier, a lot depends on who you are marketing to.
    Not sure how many people would know who Tom Moore the Irish poet is. I didn't, but then I've never done well in the literary, art or music areas.

    If you are marketing to the everyday person, the $7500 price is too high. If you had a shop on 5th Ave and you were marketing to a group who wouldn't be caught dead in a thrift store, then $7500 might be a bargain.
     
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  7. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    So, same subject, different rendering? I'd need to have them in front of me to feel really sure one way or the other. I know my eyes often fool my brain. I'm trying to look with your eyes. Don't know if this will help answer the question:

    Moore synop.jpg

    It seems the 3-D busts had to be designed from the 2-D engraving. The National Portrait Gallery does not include either in their collection. It's really too bad the Seidenberg description does not include a photo of the back, since the hair there would have to be the invention of the modeler. If the busts are from 2 different molds, the curls at the crown would surely be different.

    Tom seems to have been quite a character:

    https://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/another-side-of-thomas-moore/
     
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  8. Christmasjoy

    Christmasjoy Well-Known Member

    They STILL look different to my eyes Bronwen ... the first bust has all the creases looking crisp and very well defined whilst the other one does not. Also the face shapes are quite different. Also, what is that slit on the left side of the collar?It is gaping open on the first bust, and neat and closed on the one in question. No, not the same in too many ways ... Joy.
     
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  9. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    Afraid the collar notches look the same to me too. Gato's photo is a bit washed out, so it's hard to see the lower edge of the V, but I see it as the same size, shape & in the same position on both.

    I see how the busts look different in the photos. The test would be for Gato to take some pix with Tom facing directly to the front instead of being slightly turned to the viewer's left & tilted a little forward, so it is in the same position as the Seidenberg one, which is really well lit to bring out all the detail. ( @Gatoblanconz It's better to take pix that are a little dark because they can be edited to improve contrast, etc. Can't do much with areas that are white; there's nothing there to bring out.) Then we could re-evaluate it with a fairer comparison.
     
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  10. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    He did?:eek::punch:
     
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  11. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    So Wiki tells me. He was 1 of 2 executors of Byron's estate. Think Moore did write a bio of Byron. Possible memoirs would have had a bearing on more reputations than Lady Caroline Lamb's alone, ruining marriages & lives. Still...
     
  12. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly The worst prison is a closed heart

  13. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    That one is definitely from a different mold. Robinson & Leadbeater put some of their busts on blocks that way. The 2 together sold for $300.
     
  14. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly The worst prison is a closed heart

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  15. JB Miller

    JB Miller Well-Known Member

    The book is "The Parian Phenomenon." Page 230, plate 752a shows Tom Moore, made by Robinson & Leadbeater, height 16" without socle. Took a pic for you.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Christmasjoy

    Christmasjoy Well-Known Member

    I haven't changed my mind one bit .. Not the same. ... Joy.
     
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  17. Gatoblanconz

    Gatoblanconz Well-Known Member

    IMG_20200505_092756.jpg
    Thank you so much I was looking for that Page. Idon't have the book and the librarians are going to work at the moment.
    Mine is also 16 inches. Does the book give a manufacture date?
    Interesting that the example in the book doesn't have a socle. I'm pretty sure mine used to by looking at the bottom here.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
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  18. Gatoblanconz

    Gatoblanconz Well-Known Member

    IMG_20200506_180354.jpg
    joy it's gaping open on both have a look at the photos in the links in my first post.
    Edit: or this photo here. There's the gape
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
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  19. Gatoblanconz

    Gatoblanconz Well-Known Member

    This one you have posted here with the square base is a smaller version. And a different mould. mine is 16 inches
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
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  20. Gatoblanconz

    Gatoblanconz Well-Known Member

    @Bronwen do you also see a match of the one from the book posted by J B Miller above and the one from Manhattan and my one? My assessment is that all the details are the same on all three
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
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