Haystack pewter measure

Hoping @pewter2 will see this.

This is an Irish haystack measure I picked up last week. I am mostly interested in early American pewter, but will buy any interesting pewter if it is old and cheap enough. From the reading I've done on UK pewter, I believe this to be early 19th century, maker unknown since it only has a quality mark. Based on the certification marks I believe it to be pretty early in the 19th century - like before 1830 due to the GR mark it has. Do you agree? I looked on ebay to try to establish a value, but none of the ones I see there have any certification marks, and they are all stamped Austen by the same maker which was widely reproduced and therefore I question whether all the more than dozen that I see on ebay are reproductions? In which case what would the value of this one be, assuming as I do that it is authentic?

Also, I assume pewter2 is unfamiliar with American pewter since he is in Australia. Is that right?

 

Is this a site you have already checked?

https://web.archive.org/web/20101219044541/http://pewtertankardsflagons.com/

 

Yes, thank you, SVBC posted that link a couple days ago and I checked it out. Most of the mark information there is for 20th century pewter, with some good general information that was useful. Besides the verification marks this has what I think is just a quality mark, so I doubt I will find a maker (but hoping @pewter2 or someone else who has experience with British pewter will correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Davey is it the one above that clutter posted? It goes to Pat's site info.

 

Jeff I have quite a few books on pewter marks. I can have a look but it won't have values.

I have some pewter that I'm quite sure it old however I also have some that I have questions about. It's amazing how old it can look but might not be

 

Oh, Pat was a wealth of knowledge. Not only pewter, but silver as well.
He was a BIG loss.

 

Thank you, I have several books too, but all on American pewter, which is what I mostly own. Do you have a book devoted to English pewter? I am pretty comfortable that I know what this piece is, but would like confirmation from someone who knows English pewter from experience. Pewter2 posted that he used to have over 100 (200?) pieces of pewter that he has sold fairly recently, and I assume a decent amount of that was English since he is in Australia, which is why I hope he sees this and chimes in.

 

Most of my pewter is Continental and I hardly consider myself knowledgeable enough to make a judgment on much of anything without extensive research on each.

Anyway, I'm up to Cotterell's Old Pewter Its Makers and Marks which is on British pewter. I thought you might find this passage useful. Especially the 1877 date.

 

I saw something similar online. It's the WR and GR stamps, with no VR stamp, that makes me believe that this is early in the 19th century (last date for a GR stamp would have been at G IV's death in 1830, followed by W IV until 1837, then VR till the end of the 19th century).

See this link for Capacity Standard: http://www.pewtersociety.org/identify/verification-and-capacity-marks

Unless these are faked or I'm misinterpreting of course...

 

This will probably be of great help if you haven't seen it already. I just did a quick look but the 22x on yours may be explained here. It wasn't immediately clear to me.

http://www.pewterbank.com/Marks_and_Marking_of_Weights_and_Measures_of_the_British_Isles.pdf

Here is what should be an authentic Austen measure but with only one good photo.

http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O75783/measure-austen-son/

There is probably a good bit more information in the books I have but I don't have time to try to sort it all out at the moment (and I get distracted by other things in there, I do love pewter). Hopefully pewter2 is able to give you some guidance.

 

Indeed, the pewterbank book appears to answer the question. Made by Richard Neate, who seems to have had quite a business in the 1920's with faking old pewter. Pewter Society apparently wrote a book about Neate; maybe I'll send them these pictures in case they are interested. I don't think this is supposed to be by Austen since those are also faked but with a different fake touchplate (thus all the sub $100 ones on ebay which certainly look good but also fakes). Thanks!

 

Hello Jeff.... Nice haystack measure and most likely by Austen....most i have had have been by him.
Joseph Austen and son. at 54 North Main Street Cork, Ireland, in operation 1828 to 1833......so your measure dates within that period.
One of his marks was the crowned X with Austen Cork underneath, as shown in your picture.
The X on pewter denoted quality.
The other marks are quantity verification mark as follows...
.
Crowned harp WR...seal of capacity verification conforming to the Act of 1688, standardising the ale and wine measures. This mark continued through to the 19th century...the 22x denotes the county ( don't know this particular one) but it is obvious that this measure spent all it's useful life within the same county.

Crowned harp GR..indicates that this was tested and capacity verified at a later date...this would have been ongoing, again 22x denotes county.

I would have expected to see a capacity mark on this measure. As further information, Austen amalgamated with Munster Iron Co from 1833 onwards .... that company continued until 1905 at same address.

Regarding American pewter I only have one piece..(alas , nothing by Boardman or Will) .think a Pennsylvanian porringer.... .much lead content, this may have been as a result of higher excise being placed on tin by the Welsh in early 1800's ...resulting in some American pewter being melted down and lead added to meet demand.
Hope this helps........ carry on collecting................ regards Pewter2

 

ERRATA
Hello again Jeff....rule one...re-read what you have written (ME)..regarding para 2, I erased part originally, didn't correct what i said or should have added, thus left this part a bit ambiguous. here goes again.

The verification marks conform to the Act of 1688 in the reign of William iii to standardise the ale and wine measures etc. I have rewritten what I meant to say..... I hope !!! Also I have assumed that bottom part of makers mark has worn.
A good reference book on English pewter is one by Cotterill or one by Peel.

 

AND EDITING DIDN'T WORK !!! here goes again. All ale , spirits etc volumes were standardised by the Act by William iii in 1688......the crowned GR over a harp shows that the volume was verified during the reign of Gorge iv and likewise the crowned WR over the harp denotes it was tested during the reign of William iv .....the 22x denotes the county, of which I am unable to advise. Hope this has not confused too many of you , I am going to have a cuppa now !! sheesh !!