Featured Victorian glass decanter?

Just when I thought I might actually know some stuff, Kevin put me in my place.
What looks like 200 year old decanter, may well be a mere 100 years old or less.
This link The coolest Decanter web site in the WORLD has links to 2 YouTube videos about antique decanters that are quite interesting.

 

For those who don't like to click on the unknown
I've learned about the reproduction of these early style decanters from about 1900-1940. Apparently, it was in vogue and many glass factories were doing it. It's a tricky thing. IMO, based on the info Kevin was giving in his youtube shows, this decanter is early 20th century. I don't know who Kevin is, but he was referencing books by Andy McConnell, who is in fact, a glass God.
This opinion is up for debate until we find the maker, which I'll continue to look for. What fun!

 

Great links, thanks!

I obviously hadn’t looked closely enough at OP piece, and wasn’t aware these were so widely reproduced. Based on what you’ve found, I would agree this one is likely one of the (now old but not old enough) reproductions. I didn’t notice the lack of wear, which can be hard to see in photos but is something I spend a LOT of time on before buying any proportedly old glass.

 

Indeed, he is the contributor to English antique roadshow who is by far the most fun to watch. I just ordered the referenced book from inter library loan. Thanks.

BTW, the large production of vintage reproductions undoubtedly explains the large number on eBay for low money, most of which are reproductions. And probably accounts for the relatively cheap prices of even authentic pieces - just like with antique pewter which also widely reproduced in the same time frame.

 

I think this one is right, based on the glass hue. I sold a piece of glass to McConnell once.

 

Hi there. Thanks for this. Interesting read. Not sure you can judge a piece's age on wear alone however. Different items have different journeys. Some decanters are left on hard surfaces, others on fabric. Some may be mothballed in a box in an attic for 150 years. I can't argue either way regarding this and I respect your experience and knowledge. Glass is a difficult field to master as there are so many subtle nuances. I usually give it a wide berth because of this. It's interesting to absorb information like this though.

Here's an interesting one; The stopper didn't fit very well when I bought it on Saturday. It fits perfectly now! Temperature fluctuation maybe. I accept it's not an original one though as I've seen a fair few with the correct stopper online.

 

I've just ordered the book too! Can't wait to get it. My favorite 20th century glass book is by McConnell.

 

I do indeed agree that glass can be hard to date. It's rare to find a piece of 200 year old glass without plenty of wear, but not impossible. I have one that has tons of wear that I'm questioning myself. I do hope your decanter is right. Hopefully we'll find the shape and can confirm it. I have a feeling there is a lot to be learned from your lovely bottle!

 

I’ve a decanter made in about 1780 with almost no wear. (And it was McConnell who confirmed the date, too.)

 

I’m curious if you see anything else to make you believe the OP piece is correct besides color. The color could be an artifact of the picture, but does not look right at all for what would be early English flint I.e. lead glass.

And clearly having mentioned it, you NEED to give us details of selling to and otherwise meeting McConnell!!

 

Georgian glass is greyish, which the decanter base is, whilst the stopper isn’t, being a fair bit later. The cut looks right too. I’ve seen the later copies and they’re sloppier, for want of a better word. Too smoothed off.

I met McConnell a fair few times, through an organisation I was involved with and went to his shop more than once. I had a piece of Skruf glass which he wanted as an example, so he bought it from me. Not expensive, but like any proper nerd he’s a completist. Also knew Mark Hill and the wonderful Charles Hajdamach at one point.

 

Oh, and I’d agree yours is later, it’s much less complex and less precise.

 

Warning: I picked up the Decanter book today, so I have pictures to share!

First off about color, McConnell says in his book’s Reproduction section: “Differentiating between old and new can be difficult .. and some makers even tried to replicate the greyish hue of early glass”. So this one test is not sufficient any more than the amount of wear. But both are good indications, and both are something you want to find in authentic glass. From the one pic shown the color doesn’t look right to me for early lead crystal, but as I said that could be the pic, so inconclusive.

Second, I am still very bothered by lack of wear, though you are willing to excuse that.

Third, I am bothered by the lack of polished pontil on the base, instead having a base with deeply cut prisms. Deep cut base is typical from Victorian through reproductions and modern ware, but unusual on Georgian work (perusing his book shows that). So it is possible, just as a lack of wear is possible, but again unusual and out of the ordinary (for Georgian period).

Fourth, from the pic we have it is impossible to say anything about how clean and clear the glass is, or whether it includes the occasional air bubbles and grit we expect to see. Personally I would not be willing to make a definitive conclusion without checking that.

Finally you said the cut looks right. And here again I disagree. Or at any rate the style does not seem consistent with the examples he has in his book FOR THAT TIME PERIOD. I think we can agree that the OP example is a Cylinder (Nelson) shape decanter. As McConnell writes: “[cylinder shape] gradually gaining in popularity, the cylinder replaced the Prussian as the most fashionable form c1825-40”. He then shows examples of cylinder shape from the Georgian period, very different than OPs - see two pics below (and also note the pontil bases):

 

So if this isn’t Georgian, then what is it? I would guess that if it isn’t a late Victorian reproduction, then it is a bit earlier in the Victorian period up to mid 19th. Again the McConnell book helps out, showing examples of early-mid Victorian cylinder decanters. Look especially at the decanters in the drawings upper left that have the lenses of OPs (enlarged in the last pic) and also in a couple of the sample decanters (though hard to see), but the deep cut bases are easy to see:

 

Much less complex is a GOOD thing for early Prussian shape Georgian decanter. These look VERY similar to me - and I’m not saying they are the same or mine is that old - just saying they are completely compatible in style. “(plate 306): Early, shallow-fluted Prussian with a narrow pouring lip, c1785”

 

Very high marks on the McConnell Decanter book, you will definitely enjoy it @glassluv . There is a ton of useful info. I ordered to buy his 20th Century Glass book, and would have bought this one too but the price is pretty high. Luckily there is one available from my library that lives in the Antiquarian library in my town, so no need to buy it, I can borrow it any time I need it.

As to your piece with tons of wear that you wonder about? He says this: “inspect feet and bases for tell-tale signs of wear, but these too can be faked. One method for detecting such fake ageing is to place decanter on a flat surface and insert a piece of paper between its base and surface. Where it slips under without assistance, there should be no evidence of wear.”

Testing on the decanter I show above shows this works. Placed on a granite countertop and using corner of a piece of paper, there should be spots where it slips under easily (since handmade glass not perfectly flat). Checking the spots where the corner slides in, those lack wear on the base, though the rest has heavy damage. Brilliant.

 

Finally received the book. You're right, there is a ton of information in there. I've hardly scratched the surface!
I bet you're right about early Victorian. Your unusual base cut looks a lot like a few pictured under that chapter. Those circle cuts as well. The stopper, be it original or not, not only looks good with it, it fits!