Help w/Identifying Unusual Chinese Embroidery Panel

hi everyone. i have been trying to identify and date this little piece of embroidery art from China for a couple of months now. i've posted it on the Asian Arts Forum and gotten no comments. i tried Reddit with similar results. i've come to believe this might be an extremely old and unique piece. however, one of the problems with things like this is there are very few who might be able to help with identifying it. the embroidery art in the center measures 8.5" x 4" from edge to edge. the entire piece measures 14"x 9.5". i do know that these panels were being manufactured during the Republic period in China. i believe some entrepreneur of the day was gathering old embroidery art and cutting it into smaller panels like this, sewing up a nice presentation around them and exporting them en masse. i've actually found a couple of these Republic era panels online that were probably made at the same time and they have nice examples of 19th century Chinese embroidery art in them. in this case, this piece has many characteristics of embroidery art that might date this from the 7th or 8th centuries. the use of chainstitch embroidery is a technique that was used in ancient times. it was actually during the Tang dynasty that they first started using satin stitch. stylistically, i've discovered that this art is what is described as the "peony tang grass pattern," and dates from the Tang Dynasty. also, i can not find anything else of Chinese decent that looks anything like it(pieces from that era are extremely rare). that phoenix has a very cool antique/primitive look to it. the only real alternative is that this was made years later as some sort of "retro" piece. but the Chinese weren't really doing that in the 18th and 19th centuries. so, i'm stumped. what i am considering is radiocarbon dating. that's going to cost $400. i'm hoping someone here might have a suggestion or know someone i can contact(just try to find a contact link on a Chinese museum's website). any ideas will be appreciated...thanks

 

find out when they used red dye that bled onto th background....

 

To my eye, that looks like a fairly modern piece. Contemporary with the sticker. Let's see what others think.

Debora

 

Here's an 8th century piece in The Met's collection for comparison.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/39596

Debora

 

among the many things i've already found in my research, that i didn't include in my first statement is that very thing. this is an example of an ancient Chinese embroidery piece taken from a tomb that dates from, i think, 500 BC. you can see the red, which is more or of a magenta, bleeds similarly to mine. also, note this swirling style of art. according to my research this is referred to as Qi and was the prevailing artform in China for a couple of thousand years. it was during the Sui and Tang Dynasties that this fell from favor as the peony tang grass pattern replaced it. like i say, all of my research seems to point to this little piece i found being very old.

 

thank you, i've looked at that. it was, according to my research, during that period that the aesthetic was changing in China from swirling abstract art to more realistic depictions of things. it was also during that period that embroidery techniques were changing. i, too, am having a problem with how bold the colors are on my piece. but, if you look closely at the picture i've provided of the upper right corner flower you do see some localized fading. also there's an area running along the top, across the entire piece, where the backing fabric is worn unevenly and at a couple of points to thread. also, there are multiple small stains to be found along the outer margins. what i've imagined is some poor seamstress, back in the 1930s or 40s, sitting at a sewing machine with piles of old embroidery art, and her job is to figure out a way to repackage all of this stuff in these little panels with nice new borders to make money for her boss. you don't really notice the damages on this piece unless you look closely, but this could be old.

 

I don't see that chain stich as being very old........

 

which one, mine or the other pic i posted?

 

yours...

 

yes, i have a problem with that too. but as i've explained before, it does show age if you look closely and what does "old" chainstitch look like? that composition, as well as the style of the art doesn't look new. i'm genuinely baffled. what i'm looking for is some proof it isn't old. i've found none.

 

https://www.google.com/search?vsrid...subts=1776065779816&biw=1871&bih=975&hl=en-CA

go thru the tags here....some say vintage , others antique...

AI.....which can't be trusted says..

..
This item is an antique or vintage Chinese embroidered silk panel or rank badge, featuring a tag indicating it was likely produced for the tourist trade in Peking (Beijing), China.

• These textiles often date from the late 19th to mid-20th century.
• They frequently depict traditional motifs such as flowers, bats, or moths.
• Such panels are often classified as collectibles and are highly decorative, though they may have modern aniline dyes depending on the specific era of production

 

In this case I agree with AI, but it isn't a rank badge. The other option 'they' gave, a panel, is correct. A pretty souvenir, first half of the 20th century imo.

The Asian Arts Forum is specialised in China and Japan, the other Asian countries not so much.
If they don't comment on a Chinese piece, their specialisation, it usually means they think it doesn't qualify as antique or special.

 

when i click on that link the little applet that is open disappears in seconds. so i can't see it.

 

ya , me as well...... you'll just have to google image the tag....

 

let me say, a woman i contacted, that has a website discussing ancient Chinese embroidery got back to me. she thinks it's Northern Han or possibly Southern Han and from the late 19th century. this sounds plausible to me. it's definitely not anything mainstream that was being done in China in the 19th century. it would more likely be some ethnic group within China. here's a link: https://www.viewofchina.com/mawangdui-embroidery/

 

So Han, full stop. The majority of Chinese are Han, currently 1.4 billion people worldwide. What she probably meant to say is that it was not made by any of the minorities.

I'm fine with that.

The Han are by no means a minority, 1.4 billion means they are by far the largest ethnic group in the world.

That one is 2000 yrs old, which is considerably older than late 19th. It is a beauty though.