Help ID & Date Copper Pot ?

Just picked up this old hand crafted copper pot. Size-Handle 10 1/2 inches,Pot Opening (uneven) 8-8 1/2 inches,Height 4 1/2 inches.
Construction: Body-dovetailed copper/brass solder (?) seams. Handle-Appears to be folded/laminated copper. Marks- 'T' stamp on underside of handle,stretch cracks/marks (surface micro deep).
Any info or opinions on the age and origin of this piece is most welcome.

 

I'm seeing a T

 

First one I've seen with a 2-piece bottom.
Old, fer shure...Nice, Bosko!

 

Oh yeah-Thanks Marote.Living over in Europe you've prob seen more old cookware than me-any idea on age ?
The 'T' stamp from what I've read could be the mark of the coppersmith/brazier,the home and/or kitchen it belonged to.

 

I can only find that info in the Google AI answer. The sites AI refers to in that answer, don't mention a T mark.

Here's a site with some info on old copper pots. It seems to be a reliable site, with knowledgeable people...
https://www.antiquers.com/threads/old-copper-pot-dovetailed-confused-about-age-etc.2641/#post-37163

 

Thanks Whit- thought you'd get a kick out this considering your love for old tools-as old utensils are.
I definitely perked up when I saw it at the thrift ! Now normally when I run into a fabricated piece like this (in Oregon), it's something made in the 50's or newer from Turkey,Mexico,India,etc., no matter how old it looks.
If I got very lucky- this might be a 19th cent piece from France or England, or maybe even America.

 

An' on closer inspection, I'll bet the smaller section of the bottom is a repair...a replacement piece. The edges an' the regularity of their outline are distinct from the original 2/3rds. Whadya think?
BTW...that out-of-round will yield to gentle but firm strong-arm manipulation; sit down with it an' begin to push here an' there...see if it won't! Good Luck!

 

Thanks Gents.

 

Could definitely be a repair-this thing is really heavy ! I think, considering how thick the copper gauge is (2.8-3mm thickness) it may have been used for commercial use or a really big house ?

 

I love traditional copper pots, have a French set myself.

For people who love antique kitchenalia, as well as a very beautiful French movie, I can recommend "La Passion de Dodin Bouffant", almost entirely shot in a historic chateau kitchen.
This is an English language wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Taste_of_Things

Are you sure?

 

AJ- Looks like an excellent film. Re: French copper pots-used to watch a documentary on YouTube ('We Bought A Chateau'-I think ?). A UK family restores an old chateau,and runs around looking for furnishings. One of the family finds 2-3 older E. Dehillerin copper pots at a Brocante for under a $100. The guy was over the moon !
Davey-Interesting observation, this old pot's got some history.
Whit-A repair patch seems logical.

*The not always trustworthy AI Robot said (after asking numerous questions)-

"Analysis-Your detailed specifications reveal that you possess an exceptional, heavy-duty piece of pre-1850 early American or regional English culinary history.
An 8½-inch pan weighing 4 pounds 2 ounces is a remarkably thick, "commercial-grade" antique vessel. Here is what your specific configuration tells us:
Architectural Clues & Regional Origin-
The Two Vertical Seams: Most standard 19th-century French saucepans were formed by rolling a single cylinder of copper, resulting in just one vertical seam up the side. The presence of of two vertical seams indicates that the walls were meticulously hand-fashioned out of two separate curved plates of copper. This is highly characteristic of early 19th-century American workshops (such as early New York or Philadelphia coppersmiths) or specific regional British workshops trying to optimize flat sheets of copper." (copper scraps-my comment).
"The Heart-Shaped Base Plate: The heart shape (referred to historically as a Herzform or heart bracket) is prized by collectors. This aesthetic flourish provides a wider footprint to stably distribute the heavy weight of the copper handle against the wall of the pan. It is a textbook signature of mid-19th-century artisanal design.
*Thickness & Professional Utility:A pan with an 8.5-inch diameter that weighs over 4 pounds is roughly 2.8mm to 3mm thick.
-In the 19th century, copper was categorized by thickness for different kitchen tasks.
-A thickness touching 3mm places this squarely in the 'Fort' (heavy/professional) category.
-It was forged for heavy stove top reduction, demanding consistent, slow heat conduction without burning."

Each time I answered a series of AI queries,the Robot went on asking more questions about construction, age stress micro-cracks,etc-it got a bit insane. It was quite an interesting and weird process.
PS- Obviously easily described and established antique items,like this pot- will be less of a challenge for AI to comprehend than say, an abstract painting.
Remember, old copper cookware has been bought/sold/collected for centuries-so the database of information on these items is huge.
*To us, it may have an aesthetic appeal-to the AI brain- it is just an easily describable group of physical facts-measurements,construction techniques, hammer & stretch marks, copper versus iron bolts.

 

Nutty huh ? The correspondence went on for two-plus pages til I finally stopped (it still had questions).

 

Very pertinent observation, Bosko...to be kept squarely in mind when dealing with AI. Whether it's in a simple descriptive an' analytic mode, as with your pot...or larger issues that have little to do with the physical nature of 'things'.
AI ain't US!

 

Whit- As a machine mind AI would have real problems identifying some of your more fascinating mystery pieces because much of the deducing what one your little doo-hickeys is involves Imagination.
PS-For future reference,I firmly believe AI will become better at pretending to be Us, probably sooner than later-The Future Is Now.
From the 1939 NY World's fair-

 

Hmm...more likely those are Bosko's prints. That pot has been recently scoured of 'patina'. down to elemental copper. Any handling post-cleanup will leave that evidence due to the moisture of the human skin interacting with raw copper.

 

Just found this info on the 'Vintage French Copper' website-
"The Compass Dot: Look at the exact center of the pan's bottom (inside or outside). A tiny prick mark indicates a coppersmith used a manual compass to scribe the circle before hand-cutting the sheet metal. This technique mostly disappeared by the 1890s when automated industrial presses took over."

 

Maybe the previous owner scrubbed it and thought it was a recent Indian or Turkish piece ?
I'm going to soak it in warm dish soap, gently scrub (after consulting the Copper Gods), and see if it needs to be treated in any way.

 

Oh, good...it wasn't you who perpetrated the affront to th' ol' pot! As it is, just avoid anything abrasive or chemically aggressive...no Dutch Cleanser or Soft Scrub. Give it a place where it can continue to age gracefully. After all it's been through in ~200 years, you aren't likely to do much harm, even if you use it daily!
It's a real treasure, Bosko!

 

Nah, I learned about patina when i wuz a PUP !