Age of bellied ale mug?

Hi, everyone:

I'm new to the world of pewter collecting, and am learning as fast as I can, but I was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about this quart ale mug I have.

As you'll see, it has an inscription on it from the mid-1940's but, according to the research I've done so far, the handle shape, absence of reeding, Crown WR marks and absence of capacity marks would seem to indicate that it was quite old even then, and is likely pre-1826. Would you agree with this? If so, would anyone like to hazard a guess as to when it might date to?

Also, would the "IR" initials be a maker's mark, or an owner's initials?

Here is the mug:







Thanks for any help you may be able to provide!

Dave

 

The WR might be for William IV.

 

That is indeed for William IV. This thing was inscribed during WW2, when it was common for people to buy old objects and have them dedicated. They could not buy new: we weren't making them. I think the I R relates to a maker.

 

Thank you for your replies, moreotherstuff and Ownedbybear. Wow, good Queen Victoria's uncle!

 

Yup! Not massive value, and if anything, the inscription reduces it. But to me, it makes it far more interesting as a piece of history. I like it a lot.

 

Thanks! I know pewter doesn't have tons of value but I bought this mug for what I thought was a fair price; $85 Canadian (about $62 USD). I hope I did okay.

I really like that the mug was already more than a hundred years old when it was presented to this Royal Canadian Air Force officer 73 years ago, during WW2. Now, the fun of researching this gentleman...

 

Off and on since this query was posted, I have looked for the maker of this touchmark, IR, with no luck. The big problem is the lack of any device with the initials. Most pewter touchmarks will have initials with such devices as a lion, rose, crown, anchor, star, etc.... or a combination of devices. Cotterell's Old Pewter, Its Makers and Marks, has several IR touchmarks like I.R. but all with devises. Also just about all of them date too early for this mug. Thirdly several of makers touchmarks with an IR and devises are unknown.
Examples:
One of John Watts of London touchmarks comprised of 4 stamps: lion rampant, leopard's face, bird and I.R. His dates are the mid 1700s.
John Reynolds of London had several pewter touchmarks with IR combined with a such things as a fox or star, but he dates to the 1600s.

You may be aware of the following, but in case not. Back in those days, Js were usually written as Is. So if a person's name was say John Reynolds, his initials would be written as IR.

I could not remember William IV's dates as King of the UK - having a senior moment. I knew QV ascended the throne on his death - 1837, but I couldn't remember when he ascended the throne. I guess it was in 1830? Sooo I guess this mug dates from 1830-1837.

--- Susan

Edit: BTW, welcome to the forums!

Edit #2: Do look down inside the mug for any other markings. Marks in the bottom are called pot marks. Sometimes maker's punched their touchmarks down inside of mugs, measures and tankards.
http://www.pewterbank.com/html/mug_-_measure_marks.html

Edit #3: There is always a chance the "IR" were the initials of the original owner and not of the maker???

 

Ooops.... hold on!!!! WR with crown isn't William IV but that of William III! William IV mark was crown over WIVR.
Scroll a good 1/2 way down the page to:

"Unknown Maker – 3 animals passant – stags or horses, not lions? Made in time of Crown over WR verification… likely William III ale standard"
http://www.pewterbank.com/html/mug_-_measure_marks.html

http://www.pewtersociety.org/identify/verification-and-capacity-marks

He was King of England, Scotland and Ireland from 1689 to 1702. This puts a new light on the subject. The lack of a capacity mark on the mug bothered me. According to the following page, capacity marks were not required until 1826 though many did before.

I really do believe the "IR" are the initials of the original owner because it was not uncommon for the owner to use 2 or 3 initials on something this size. Pewter makers' touchmarks were usually more detailed/ornate.

--- Susan

 

Blimey, she's right, I'd missed that. The wrong Billy on my part: this is the Orange one, the Dutchman. That would also make more sense on the IR thing - I was indeed used for J, from the Latin. (Iohannes and all that.) But the use of I for J was dying out by the 1830s. Well done Susan.

 

Wow, so this mug may have been made quite a bit earlier than the 1790-1826 range that I'd thought. Thanks so much for your help, Ladybranch! I really appreciate how generous the members of this forum are with their knowledge to a newbie like me.

I'm now embarassed to admit that I originally thought this mug was the same age as the inscription, so from the 1940's...

BTW, I had no idea that J's were written as I's way back. Very good to know.

Dave

 

We enjoy it.

Don't be embarrassed, I'd totally forgotten about King Billy, which is mortifying. That shape has been around a LONG time.

If you discover anything about the fellow in the inscription, I'd love to know. And as to age of things, my Ma, whom arried in the early 50s, was given an engraved silver salver dedicated to her. Hallmarked 1850s.

 

You are certainly welcome. It is a pleasure for me to see pewter of that era or for that matter any antique pewter. The challenge of IDing its age is a form of welcomed mental exercise, recreation, for me. Thank you for posting!

--- Susan

 

So far, I've found just one mention of him, in the April 8, 1942 issue of the Ottawa Journal newspaper:



So, we now know he was a real person, who lived in Calgary, Alberta, and had family in Ottawa. Shouldn't be too hard to dig up more information on him, now.

 

Here's the full listing:

"7 ft ft Wing Commander A. C. Stone and Mrs. Stone, of Calgary, are spending a few days . in the Capital as the guests of the former's brother and sister-in-law. Mr. and Mrs. T. A. Stone."

I see you have already posted the mug on a war relics forum:
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/equipment-field-gear/rcaf-wing-commanders-ale-mug-673211/

Wonder if the following Lt. AC Stone killed during WWI was his father. The memorial says "his son Squadron Leader C.A.C. stone, D.F.C. was to serve with distinction in WWII."

"Lieut AC Stone Officer 45th Rattray Sikhs, Killed 1st Feb 1917 Battle of Hai Sailent, Mesopotamia St John the Evangelist Church, Surrey Road, Westbourne, Bournemouth DOR BH4. His son Squadron Leader C. A. C. Stone, D.F.C. was to serve with distinction in WWII."

https://www.pinterest.se/pin/536069161869861724/

Some have trouble getting into Pinterest. If so, have include the pic of the memorial plaque at I presume St. John the Evangelist Church. I suspect this is only a memorial plaque and that he is not buried there. I don't believe they brought back bodies during WWI especially from Mesopotamia.

--- Susan

 

Hi Ladybranch,

Thanks for your thoughts. Like you, when I found out about this C. A. C. Stone I was excited because I thought for sure he must be our guy. The name, the fact that he ended the war a Wing Commander and that he was "overseas" in India and Burma from 1942 to 1944, like the inscription says, all seemed like huge coincidences. He wasn't Canadian, and was RAF, not RCAF, but there were many Canadians in the squadron he lead in Burma, 135 Sqn. RAF, and so I figured maybe they'd presented him with the mug. Anyway, as much as I'd like for him to be our guy, I'm now pretty much convinced that he's not. There was another Wing Commander Stone, without the first C in his initials, from Canada, who lived in Calgary and was sent overseas to England in 1942. And, judging from the dearth of material about him out there, he must have had a far less exciting career than his namesake C. A. C. Stone did!

 

If that's William III, is there any chance that the IR is James I? I've had mugs with more than one reign mark. It's an excise stamp, isn't it?

 

I haven't discovered anything new about A.C. Stone, but it turns out his brother T.A. Stone was quite the guy. Here's his obituary, from a July '65 copy of the Ottawa Journal newspaper:

 

Further development - I've just discovered that our A.C. Stone was an RCAF doctor.

 

You're enjoying this, aren't you.

 

Yes, I do enjoy researching stuff.