Featured What would you do?

I haven't posted anything about a painting I found awhile ago, mainly because I am really uncertain what to do with it. Here is the story: I visited a local Goodwill and found this painting and huge heavy gilded frame. As I turned the frame over, I read W.K. O'brien and Bro. label on the back. After searching online, I realized I might have stumbled up on something truly valuable. I bought it and took it home. After some more research, I stumbled upon the leading expert on the value of American gilded frames, who owns a gallery in New York. My next step was to contact that gallery.

I got an email and a phone call back from the gallery in New York, and what they told me did not, and still does not seem believable to me (I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just saying the amount is preposterous). Keep in mind, this is the authority on value of U.S. gilded frames; he essentially created the market for these frames. What I was told by his staff, was the price to have their company repair the frame was $6,500, and after such a repair, they would be willing to consign it in their gallery for retail sale. They placed a retail value of the frame at $22,000 - $28,000!!!!!!

So...$6,500 is an incredible expense. And 22-28k is an incredible price for someone to pay for an old wooden frame. In my mind, I said "I need to find a way to confirm the potential value of the frame to justify such an outrageous price to renovate it" because both are really hard to believe. I have spent some considerable time pondering this issue, which has led me down the rabbit hole I currently find myself in.

My next step was to reach out to an appraiser, to see what could be found about the painting itself. I paid to have the painting appraised, and not much was revealed about the maker or the auction value (nominal compared to the potential value of the frame). After that "dead end" I reached out to two other frame restorers, and the other two quotes for repair were $400 (something tells me this might not be the best repair, but who knows) and $1500-$2500 (this gentlemen seemed quite knowledgeable).

For my final step, I reached out to a local auction company to ask about the auction value for the painting and frame in its current state without repairs. I made sure to mention the frame was a W.K. O'brien and Bro painting, but I intentionally didn't tell them the valuation I got from the frame expert (because I didn't want to bias their opinion).

So, as I see it right now, these are my options on the table:

1. Take the frame to the high end expert, pay $6,500 and roll the dice on how much it will sell for, but also when the frame might sell (if ever).
2. Take the frame to one of the other two restorers, but this likely means I'm going to need to list the frame for sale on my own. I'm assuming that the 'frame expert' is going to be able to command a much higher value in a retail setting, I'm just not sure what that true value is.
3. List the painting in an auction "as is" and roll the dice there.
4. Something else that I'm not considering?

It's worth mentioning, that at this point, I purchased the frame/painting for $20 and I paid $150 for an appraisal of the painting, so I'm all in for $170. Here are a few pictures of the frame and painting, the visible portion of the painting is 19" x 24". The frame weighs close to 50 pounds.

What should I do???

 

I'm sure you've tried Google searches for "W.K. O'brien and Bro."
I found two for sale at $9,500 https://www.1stdibs.com/creators/wk-obrien/furniture/mirrors/
and https://www.thehighboy.com/frames/3...me-by-w-k-o-brien-bros-of-new-york-circa-1880

("An exceptional example by preeminent gilders W.K O'Brien and Bros. O'Brien Brothers created frames for some of the most important artists of the time. Examples of O'Brien's frames are in the collection of The Metropolitan Museum of Art and The Winterthur Museum.")

But I've got no advice......

 

Ah yes, I've seen those, I forgot to mention that. I also forgot to mention that the frame is from the 1870's.

 

Don't put a nickle into it.
Put it up for auction , or sell it yourself.
Let's just say... starting at $5000....
Then go on a well deserved vacation !!!
& when you come back, post your victory on the great finishes thread !

 

Doesn't something seem off???? I mean, why would someone take a purportedly fabulous frame (and I don't doubt what you are saying for one second!!!), and put a fairly mundane portrait of a lion in it???? Looking at the back....the lion frame looks old, but to me, it just doesn't seem to add up.....wonder if that lion deserves an X-ray to see if there's another painting under it???? It all seems very strange to ME!!!! JMHO!! I mean, if the frame is really THAT valuable...................?

 

That was my thinking too regarding a mundane lion in a great frame, but here is something you might not be considering. At the time the frame was purchased, it probably wasn't that valuable. I mean sure, it was definitely expensive whenever someone bought it from W.K. O'brien, but it wouldn't have had the duplicate/exponential collector value at that time. The value of the frame, as I understand it, has everything to do with the obscurity of American gilded frames, the time period of the frame, the level of craftsmanship needed to create one (not to mention it is 18-22K gold leaf that was used to make it) but most importantly, the fact that it has the name of manufacturer W.K. O'brien (there are lots of gilded frames from the same period, very few have a manufacturer on them). All that combined makes this frame (supposedly) very collectable in the modern era, but at the time it was made that wasn't necessarily the case.

As for the painting, I have also found that it was quite common for artists in the 19th century to not sign their artwork. I've looked at the painting under black light, we studied it outside of the frame, and I looked tirelessly for a period artist with a similar style, and unfortunately none of this amounted to finding the artist. So for all I know, it IS a known artist, however I think I've poured as much energy into identifying the artist as I can (at least reasonably). I would also mention that while I find the painting personally nice, I trust the judgement of the appraiser that the artist was likely more amateur compared to the prominent animal portrait artists of the time.

So to me, the painting is an afterthought, the real question revolves around what to do with the frame?

 

This similar O'Brien frame in somewhat similar condition sold for $275.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/31168080_19th-c-frame

 

I know nothing about this, but to my untrained eye I don't see $6500.00 worth of repairs. You might run it by a couple other NYC auction houses to get an opinion on selling as-is.

 

That is VERY HELPFUL information to me say_it_slowly, I hadn't seen that listing before. Thank you for looking and for sharing with me. I think above all else, this confirms what the gallery in NY said to me, the market for damaged/in need of repair frames of this sort is very weak. It still says nothing of whether someone might pay a high price for perfectly restored frames, but this is why the situation is so challenging to me.

Most of the markets I deal with (reselling paintings, electronics, really anything) there are very clear market prices and the range of value of an item is generally a tight grouping. Here, there are so many abstract numbers, I just don't know how to make sense of it all. If you told me give it to this gallery, and 80% chance it's going to sell in the next two years, I'm in. But the valuation is very challenging. By the way, the New York gallery is Eli Wilner and Company. We're talking about a company who has restored/created frames for paintings currently in the White House...

http://www.eliwilner.com/projects/completed-projects.php

 

Thank you for that advice Bdigger, I haven't really reached out to many auction houses, something I should definitely do to get the full picture. I like the advice!

 

I have sent pictures of things to RAGO auctions in NJ a few times, and they have been very good about getting back to me with their answers. No cost.

 

I sold a Newomb College piece with him.

 

oh wow that is a dilly of a pickle!

For me it would be easy, since, you know, I can't come up with the $6500 and I also don't trust people easily lol. I'd have it repaired elsewhere and try to sell it myself. You're not in it for much. But imagine if you lost 6500! Yikes. That would smart.

 

So, let me see if I understand this.
The auction house will charge you $6500, to sell it as $22 - 28,000. And then what cut will they take as a percentage of the sale? Add that to the $6500 and do they end up taking half or more?

You have a bid of $15-2500. for restoration from someone, who I presume you have had other dealings with. As you seem to know your way around the art world. Do they have examples of some of their restorations?

You might try contacting some of the other high end auction houses and ask them if you spent the money on restoration what they thought they might get. What their percentages would be, add that to the 2500. Is it a better deal than the first auction house. Don't forget about asking for a reserve.

 

will the 6500 add 12000 extra for the painting
Will paying 2500 add 5000 to the painting if so I would do it if not I wouldn't. it's like buying a rundown house put the money into it for a better return as long as you get a return no point putting 2500 and you get that back my opinion only

 

This just hit me this morning when I woke up.........If the Gallery could restore it for $6500, and sell it for $22000. there is a LOT of room for them to profit there. Why didn't THEY offer to buy it? You Might want to contact them and see if they would be interested in buying it. If they bought it for 5k and did the restoration, they would still double their money at the price they would sell it for, without paying a commission.

 

Think BD !

"the price to have their company repair the frame was $6,500, and after such a repair, they would be willing to consign it in their gallery for retail sale."

6.500...is Their price....they make a big profit on that !!!
Consignment.....they risk...NOTHING !!

It's just good business sense....to make a double cut....on the repair AND sale.... without any cash outlay of their own !

 

Which makes the whole “price quote & consignment price” seem fishy to me.

 

What are the dimensions of the frame? Where are you located? Just like they say on the Antique Road Show, leave it as original as possible. The $6500 restoration sounds absurd.

First, most restorers would not gild the entire frame. It would be cleaned. The missing pieces would be restored and those areas re-gilded and toned to match the existing gilding. Museums only restore what is broken or missing.

Even if you wanted the entire frame re-gilded, the gold isn't as expensive as you think. An entire pack of 24K gold can be purchased from $630 to $800. If my guess on the frame size is correct, it would not even take half a pack, maybe 6 to 8 books of the pack.