Interesting Pewter Box ID Needed

Measures about 5 inches or so. Lid unattached. Bottom has four holes as if mounted at one point or added later. Interesting engravings along the side panels. Not the best of shape with splits along the side. Though the curiosity factor was worth the $5 I spent on it at a local auction. Any idea on the hallmark? TIA!!


Almost forgot...how do I clean off that tape residue without ruining the patina?

 

Just a couple of guesses... The first picture is one of the Popes named Celestine (Celestinus) - There were 5 of them. Figuring out which one might be possible if you can figure out what it says after the word "der" after his name.

The second picture may be Ahmad ibn Hanbal, an important Muslim scholar and theologian from the 8th-9th centuries? Another option for the second one is the military commander Hannibal. The picture on the box, though, appears to be wearing clothing that really doesn't fit either of those.

 

One engraving may be trying to be Pope Callistus iii, ca. 1455, however the name as engraved may be an Hungarian rendering? The Papal Tiara is something common to the engraving and the pic below, as is the "wand" and I apologize for not knowing the proper name for that. "der dritt" I think is German for "the third."

Sorry I don't know the popes or Hungarian. "Homhel" seems to have had something to do with the Church and Hungary.

 

Maybe take one part of it with tape on and immerse in warm water for a day and see if tape loosens up. If not an no harm is noted leave in distilled water for a week then check it.

 

Acetone may shift the residue. People use it on coins to remove gunk and coin people are fanatical about non-destructive cleaning. Nail polish remover is mainly acetone.

Some white powder that would later wash off might make the engraving show a bit better. The engraving does seem stylistically late medieval but it seems a lot of trouble for such a humble box.

Look for 'touchmarks', 'hallmarks' only apply to British silver. Though almost universally misused.

 

I have ponder over these engraving also with no great luck. First of all FIN may be found on French, Swiss and Belgium pewter in one form or another. France may have Etain Fin, Estain Fin, etc. German, Hungarian, Austria and some Swiss pewter may have Zinn/zien while the Scandinavian countries tend to use a form of Ten/tin. Some of the above words for pewter have been used in a multitude of the countries. I thought the writing German. As Spring said it could be Hungarian. I know nothing about the Hungarian language. In the first pic I thought the person was holding the 2 crossbars cross of Lorraine. I thought the Papal cross had 3 cross bars? I couldn't come up with the names like Fig and Spring have. "Der Dritte" is the 3rd in German. I also thought a pope because of the head gear.

On the 2nd one I went through the Hanbal and Hannibals coming up with nothing. I don't think he is religiously related to the others because of the lack of any Christian symbolism?

I have no idea on the 3rd one.

I tried the many Friedericks for the 4th pic. I thought possibly Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor, 1194-1250., He was of the house of Hohenstaufen, a line of German kings. One of the many titles he carried was King of Germany. Some historians considered him the first modern ruler. The big draw back on this was not being able to associate "der eyt" to him. I wasn't able to translate "eyt."

--- Susan

 

Cross-reference (oooh bad, couldn't help it!)

from wikip:

A crosier was also carried on some occasions by the pope, beginning in the early days of the church. This practice was gradually phased out and had disappeared by the time of Pope Innocent III's pontificate in the thirteenth century. In the Middle Ages, popes would carry a three-barred cross (one more bar than on those carried before archbishops in processions), in the same manner as other bishops carried a crosier. This was in turn phased out, but Pope Paul VI introduced the modern papal pastoral staff in 1965,[3] which instead of a cross or a triple-cross depicts a modern rendition of the crucified Christ, whose arms are fixed to a crossbar that is curved somewhat in the manner of an Eastern Catholic crosier. John Paul I and John Paul II carried this same pastoral staff, as did Benedict XVI at the beginning of his papacy. Benedict XVI later carried more traditionally wrought staffs or ferulae, the first one from the pontificate of Pope Pius IX, then a second one newly made in 2009. Pope Francis continued to carry the new crosier of Benedict XVI but has also carried the crosier of Paul VI, alternating the use of both crosiers.

 

>The first picture is one of the Popes named Celestine (Celestinus) - There were 5 of them. Figuring out which one might be possible if you can figure out what it says after the word "der" after his name.<

Fig, the more I have looked at the first pic, I also think it is Celestine. With der dritt after it would make him Celestine the Third. He was pope from 1106-1198. He is usually portrayed wearing this type of headdress and carrying a Papal cross staff. On this pic his name looks spelled as Celiftinus.
As "s" was usually written to look like "f" back when, this easily would be the name Celestinus/Celestine.

As to thus staff being a papal cross or a Cross of Lorraine, I suspect that round/eclipse thingy in the staff represents the 3rd cross bar making it a Papal Cross.

The more I look at the 3rd pic, I wonder if it is depicting a king rather than a pope. He seems to be holding an orb. Rulers are usually portrayed holding orbs. I don't seem to remember seeing popes holding orbs? He may be holding a scepter in his other hand? The scepter or possibly a staff seems to have an odd shape cross at the top. I can't make out the shape well enough. Am including a over colorized pic of that scepter or staff in hopes someone will recognize. I still can't make out the name.

--- Susan

 

Acetone or lacquer thinner on the tape residue should work. Neither should harm the box or patina, though the patina of the metal may not be as dark under the residue if it has been on there a long time.

 

Sorry, Spring, missed your latest posting as I was writing mine and editing the pic. I do agree the papal cross is 3 barred, I just thought the one pictured was only 2 barred. I now see the 3rd bar.

--- Susan

 

Much nail polish remover in Amerika is now acetone free

Lighter fluid is good for not changing the oxidation on the metal

The citric stuff like goof off often lighten the metal

 

No apologies needed to me ever-keep putting up helpful info whenever you get it, the forum needs more people like u Susan.

 

I think that the third one starts out Ptolomeus (or Ptolemeus) -- which could be a lot of different people!

Info on the Ptolemaic dynasty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty

Other info about people named Ptolemy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy_(name)

Fig

 

The engravings are certainly of old subjects but I'm guessing the box itself is 20th C, maybe 19th at very earliest.

 

Here's my WAG as to why the most-likely unrelated images were engraved on the box:

A previous owner of the mostly-bare box was inspired by the crown logo stamped on it. Having too much free time, he then looked in books for images of crowned people, and decided for whatever reason to engrave the images on his box.