Featured Help identifying this cup

But it's similar to the font on the back. Maybe those parts were done together?

 

I think it's likely similar to the french verbage LA veuve -'widow of'

 

Guess what? "seel. wittwe" is apparently some kind of abbreviation. Just to see what would happen I did an "all records search" on Ancestry for Christian Klein living in Memel in 1791. Now, there were no records for that place, but I found other men by that name, living in other cities (in Germany), whose directory entry included "seel. wittwe" after their name and before their occupation. Plus other men, not named Christian Klein, with the same words.

I wonder whether Fid might know the meaning. @fidbald

Hopefully he'll see it.

 

That's definitely a possibility, Terry.

 

Terry already figured that out, Davey.

 

It would be more accurate to say that they mean nothing in modern German, but words and usages change and someone versed in 18th C Prussian German might find it as easy to translate as I would 18th or 17th C English.

It may simply be an archaic, or location specific form of 'sein' meaning his.

 

Quite true, AF.

 

I've also searched for both Seel and Feel but nothing has come up. It tried Jeel, but that didn't work either

 

somehow I'm getting a bad feeling. Wandete auf Rosen und vergissmein nicht is very doubtful "German" even for older 19th c. . it would be "Wanderte" (wandered) and "Vergissmeinnicht" (forget-me-not), two faults that would not have been acceptable even if the owner was a yokel from the flat lands.
also the CHRISTIAN KLEIN seel. Wittwe is doubtful. there's a genitive missing, at least an apostrophe after KLEIN'
seel. Wittwe would be "selige Witwe" (blessed = passed away widow)

the bottom looks newer than the rest.
perhaps the Polish and Russians start to fake German/prussian stuff because the Judaica trail has worn out ?

 

That's why I was hoping you would take a look, fid. You're obviously better at German language and German customs than the rest of us.

 

I can't make out the marks on the pics, but here some city marks for the city of Memel.
http://silberpunze.freehost.ag/index.php

IMO Memel means the city. the river doesn't make sense even if the widow took a daily bath in it, and the region would be Memelland in German.

 

And the fact that there is no indicator for loth?

I don't understand what you mean about the "river."

 

Memel is a city, a river and an old district. you wouldn't use a river as place of origin of the owner of a silver cup, would you ?

for the use of the Loth: very hard to find any info for Prussia, furthermore there seems to have been some changes between Berlin and Cologne measures, but I don't know which ones were for silver. the problem is that Loth was also a unit for normal everyday weight and not only the ratio of silver to metal.

 

Oh. I did see that there was also a Memel River, but I don't think any of us thought that was the reference on this cup, just the city.

Thanks for the education on 'loth.'

 

I see what you mean

 

Fid, are you saying that "seel." is an abbreviation for selige?

 

yes. selig was earlier written with double-e seelig (and is still pronounced with a long e).

 

'ig' is a common suffix ending in German and can easily be dropped for abbreviation without losing the sense of the word, fert-fertig, lust-lustig, saft-saftig, why not seel-seelig?

Changes of font and style were normal. See book title pages of the period, the epitome was the Victorian poster with a dozen different fonts and sizes.

The criticism of this piece seems based on 21st century standards where if something is prescribed it is there. 18th C rule observance was a lot more hit and miss, and in any case, rules and their degree of observance varied widely from place to place, consider the Scottish provincial silversmith's marks. Not much 'standard' about them.

It looks OK to me, without having it in hand.. It could be an older piece remodelled a bit, something that still goes on today with 'repurposed' stuff. (Although I ran into something really weird the other day 'Reborn' dolls. Barf. Cheaper than the psychiatric help these women really need, I suppose.)

I don't think we can be too pedantic about the German, that which is a solecism worthy of expulsion from the Mensur in Heidlberg may be common usage in the marshes of the Memel estuary.