Featured 2 Antique Tapestry Needlepoint ? Any help appreciated

I have these 2 antique, I think, needlework pieces. First, do you know if they are tapestry or needlepoint or? Any evidence of age or origin? Just anything will be appreciated. I bought the one unframed piece as is at a sale. The other the same but cannot even remember when I bought it. The framed one is long 43 inches. I see a Dutch? man of war ship boat? I say that because of the colors in the flag, although there are really 2 white stripes and a Christ flag. I do not know what kind of information one can gather from these kinds of pieces. Thank you for looking! PS my flash isn't working and I am uploading from a card to get the size right, apparently the wrong way, so I cannot edit these photos.

 

The landscape piece is not a tapestry, but a simple form of needlepoint. At first I thought it was cross stitch, but it isn't. The other picture appears to be done with the same technique.

I'm afraid I cannot identify the ship. There appear to be 3 flags. The flying above the masts and another flying off the stern.

 

The flag with red white and blue stripes is NOT an identifiable European flag. The flag of the Netherlands has only 3 stripes and yours has 4.

 

If you haven't already done so, I would suggest searching the web for European flags to see if you can find a match for the other one.

 

I suspect those are vintage rather than antique as they don't look quite 100 years old. They do both look like needlepoint but, of course, hard to tell for the piece behind glass. (You can always just open it up. Back is covered in kraft paper which any framer can replace.) Wonder if there's any symbolism to the five flower choices to the longer piece. (Tudor Rose? Carnation? Marigold? Thistle? And what... Iris?) The flags look like fantasies although the red cross on white may be intended to be the flag of England or even Genoa. Typically, these were done from kits and the first looks as if it was. Given its size and its choice of imagery, the second looks much more personal. Why all the flags, for instance? (And are you sure it's a man-of-war. If it is, you should be able to see cannons.)

Debora

 

I knew the flag was not right but thought when someone made it, they were just not thinking and messed it up, but Dutch Netherlands came the closet and the Christ cross flag fit with it as well. I looked at old ships and from the angle it could be one of 3, so I just guessed. Do not know a thing about it except what I see. How would you tell if one is 100 years old from one that is not? I thought I had saved it as a draft on Ebay as I gathered info and apparently listed it. Tried to get back in and stop it but Spectrum internet went out for over 5 hours yesterday and could not remember what I had done and by then I had a bid. I love old needlework and have an antique English, I think, framed needlework in my dining room and was going to put that up but it just was too long. If it is 100 years old, and I actually am guessing it is, how much are those worth?

 

I opened the backing paper and see it has been reframed. It does look over 100 years old to me, but... Can you glean any other info and what is the value of these?

 

It may be a bit older than 100 years old as that would only put it in the early part of the 20th century. If it were later, Victorian for instance, I'd expect the design to be more elaborate. (The boat and water would be more realistic and less abstract.) As to value, and not to be facetious, it's worth what someone will pay for it. The design is a bit of a puzzle and shipping would be high because of size. Let's see what other have to say.

Debora

 

Thanks Debora. Well it is selling, although the buyer probably isn't going to be impressed with my having opened the backing paper. I just love to learn. I do not even remember when and where I bought this, so it has been awhile.

 

I agree with @Debora, these are both needlepoint. They may be early-to-mid 20th century, it's just the "feel" I get.
As for sale-ability, I doubt I'd be able to sell the one with the cottages at all, it's too simplistic and the colors aren't very appealing. Neither work is what I'd consider "finely stitched", though the boat/floral one is much better than the other. Glad you have a buyer for it, I look forward to hearing the price it achieves! If I were selling, I'd probably not expect more than $50-$100 US.
The English St. George's flag seems obvious on it but the other flags... well, I've found nothing. As for the flower choices, I see English roses and Scottish thistles but I'm not sure of the significance of the others... perhaps more flowers of the Commonwealth?

 

The stylized sailing ship motif was extremely popular in the turn-of-the-century arts and crafts movementcarrying on for about 20 years. They turn up in every media. Here are two from my "pirate captain's cabin" guest room. https://colonelunthanksnorwich.com/2016/02/26/the-sailing-ship-as-an-arts-crafts-motif/

 

Once again thanks. I will let you know what it sells for.

 

Thank you

Thanks for the link. With what Debora and Bluumz and the information on the site you attached, I believe it to be turn of the century. I hope my buyer doesn't get mad at me for opening the back, but I couldn't help but look. I love learning about history and an item's provenance. Thank you all.

 

Buy some brown craft paper (hopefully acid-free, though the original paper may not have been) and recover it.

 

Wouldn't it be helpful to them because they can see it is not worm eaten and know it is older? I did post the photos of the inside so they could see as well.

 

Then if they're aware that the backing paper has been disturbed there's no worry.

 

Hi - The cottage one looks "1920's" to me...

But that ship one is interesting. The disproportionate size of flowers and ship - AND the Tudor Rose remind me of "stumpwork" designs ... but of course, this is worked on canvas and is not embroidery. That said; I wonder if this piece "may" possibly be older. I'm assuming that the piece is worked with wool? but could be silk... that may help in dating.

I'm reallllllly curious about this one. Let us know what you find out!

Leslie

 

You almost missed the party, Leslie! I understand the "feel" you have about this one. The over-sized florals are evocative of some 17th and 18th century embroidered panels I have seen in the Ginsburg Collection. Of course, I couldn't find a comparable image, but here's as close as I could get. Attributed by Cora Ginsburg, LLC as Philadelphia early 18th c. https://www.coraginsburg.com/catalogues/2007/CoraGinsburgCostumeTextilesCat2007.pdf
Even so, oversize florals are still around in the A&C period, eg. any Wm Morris fabric.
But THEN, the ship image fast-forwarded me right back to the 20th century. Until I found this, Spanish alter cloth panel, 16th c.
It's easy to over-think a thing, I guess!

 

Glad I didn't miss the party!!!
Love your research! The lion tapestry is remarkably similar - and the ship embroidery does make you wonder! I think you are on track for finding out more about it! Good luck!
Leslie

 

First one looks like a kit. They do get called tapestry in my neck of the woods, my Ma used to do them. 1950s ish.

On the second, Cross of St George, indeed. I wonder if the others are meant to be signalling flags or flotilla flags.

The flowers are a slightly odd mix, although all were popular in Tudor England. You've dianthus, aka gillyflower in that time and pot marigolds, calendula. As well as the rose and thistle. The other one isn't an iris, it looks like a poor rendition of a corn cockle, agrostemma.

The leaves are dodgy as hell on that rose.