Featured Antique photographic Method Question

Discussion in 'Ephemera and Photographs' started by Gus Tuason, Mar 1, 2019.

  1. Gus Tuason

    Gus Tuason Well-Known Member

    To begin my story I purchased 2 antique photos in nice antique frames at an estate sale. They portrayed a dour looking man and a woman, husband and wife I assume. One was dated on the back as taken Nov. 1861 while the other was dated Dec. 1861. Both from St. Paul, Minn. I opened the back of one and found that the photo was made up of 2 thin paper sheets. Separating them, one sheet had some colors and the other sheet had other colors. Super-imposing one on the other created an amazingly clear, colored image. What was this photographic process called?

    Now to enliven this tale. The cardboard backing, which had been fastened by tape to hold the two images neatly in sych. was loose due to the age of the tape. Turning this backing over revealed another photograph. One of an Indian woman. Now to really enliven this tale.......Several days ago, in trying to find out about this photo process, I googled unto an internet site " The Oldest Photos Taken in each State". On page 20 was the photograph of an Indian squaw: "Azayamankawin", known as: "Old Betsey" or "Old Bets". This photo of Old Bets was attributed to photographer: "Whitney" and was the or one of the first photographic pictures taken in Minn. and dated to 1862.

    I have not checked the backing of the other picture since the tape holding the 2 sheets and backing together is still intact........
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    upload_2019-3-1_14-37-36.jpeg

    That's really interesting.....
    I think you'll need a museum to get involved.....this is above my pay grade !!

    Nice find though !!!!
     
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  3. evelyb30

    evelyb30 Well-Known Member

    That's a score, no matter what. I second the idea of contacting a museum.
     
  4. scoutshouse

    scoutshouse Well-Known Member

  5. terry5732

    terry5732 Well-Known Member

    Antique dealer cobbled together fraud
     
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  6. scoutshouse

    scoutshouse Well-Known Member

  7. scoutshouse

    scoutshouse Well-Known Member

    The process on the original (2 pieces as described)

    Since Old Bet images were reproduced a lot, it wouldn't be that uncommon for someone to flip an older image to make way for newer - I'm thinking.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
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  8. moreotherstuff

    moreotherstuff Izorizent

    It might be a carbon print, though, according to this article, the dating is a problem:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_print

    The only explanation I could posit would be that old materials were used with newer techniques.

    It would really be something if you had both a period print of that "Old Bets" photo and such an early example of the tri-color-carbo process.
     
  9. scoutshouse

    scoutshouse Well-Known Member

    I can't tell for sure, but it kinda looks like the Old Bets image is sitting behind a paper matte... They may have taken a carte de visite (postcard) and trimmed it :( ?

    It's not faded, though, which is nice...
     
  10. scoutshouse

    scoutshouse Well-Known Member

    Yes, it would!
     
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  11. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    Trying to understand - are you saying the photographic image is on two transparent pieces of paper? Is there a cover glass, and is there any image on the glass? In your photo of the man, opened up, is the image that is still in the opened frame in its original position, or have you turned it over? In other words, are we seeing the back of what would be seen on the front?
     
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  12. scoutshouse

    scoutshouse Well-Known Member

    It's a fascinating story about Old Bets and how/why she came to be behind the other photo...

    But wondering: why ever did you pull the image apart, especially since warned against? Just curious :)
     
  13. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    Is the oval image of Old Bets a separate piece of paper, mounted onto a heavier card stock?
     
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  14. clutteredcloset49

    clutteredcloset49 Well-Known Member

    You can see the edge of Old Bets photo. Looks glued to another paper.
    upload_2019-3-1_18-24-46.png
     
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  15. Aquitaine

    Aquitaine Is What It IS! But NEVER BORED!

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! This is like reading a GOOD BOOK....... DON'T stop here.......it's JUST getting really good!!!!! TOO many questions still unanswered............OH CRIMONY.......it's after 1:00a.m.........nitey nite.........but I'm bookmarking and coming back for MORE!!!!!

    OOOPS.....and WELCOME to the SITE, @Gus Tuason!!!!!!
     
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  16. Phaik Hooi

    Phaik Hooi Well-Known Member

    hahahahaha yes!! i was really curious about the 2 thin paper sheets making up the one image. i was expecting 2 monochrome but it doesn't appear to be so? wonder if it was difficult to get it back together again :wideyed:

    EDIT: babbling in my head but does anyone think having the 2 sheets were meant to simulate some kind of 3D effect?
     
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  17. Figtree3

    Figtree3 What would you do if you weren't afraid?

    Note that moreotherstuff included a link about carbon prints. I think he was indicating that the ones with two sheets were possibly related to the tricolor carbon process, and could be an early version (experimentation?) with that process. I'm not sure about that exactly, since the tricolor process involves taking color on a tissue and adhering it to the negative. (He was also commenting on the other one as being carbon...)

    History of Carbon Printing:
    http://www.alternativephotography.com/a-brief-history-of-carbon-printing/

    Technical description that includes description of the tricolor process:
    http://www.alternativephotography.com/the-carbon-transfer-process/

    I'm not saying that these are not carbon. They may very well be. I've never seen anything like this. Am thinking about asking some photo history experts on Facebook about this. @Gus Tuason , would you give permission for me to ask them?
     
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  18. scoutshouse

    scoutshouse Well-Known Member

  19. Gus Tuason

    Gus Tuason Well-Known Member

    Answer to Question #1: Yes. Different colors are emphasized on each sheet. Question #2: Yes, there is a cover glass and no, there is no image on the cover glass. Question #3: Yes you are seeing the back (in the frame, original position) and I flipped over the 2nd sheet, so you are seeing the front of it.

    In addition: In checking the pic. of Old Bets I find that rather than an oval cut-out placed over her pic. it is an oval print of her (very thin print) attached (glued ?) onto a background of yellowed (now) cardboard. All of the photos shoe amazing detail.
     
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  20. scoutshouse

    scoutshouse Well-Known Member

    You missed 4. And 5.
    And 6.
    What kind of tape was used?

    Annnnd 7.
    Are you ever gonna open up the back of the 2nd frame?
     
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