Antique Russian silver cloisonne open salt and spoon - help please

Usually prefer not commenting on old, or supposedly old Russian silver, but to my eye, these do not look right at all...

~Cheryl

 

'84' is '84 Zolotnik', if I remember my Russian marking. Which is about 88% silver.

 

There is an edible amount of faked Russian silver, of widely varying quality both in the manufacture of the items and the marks - for me, just the overall look of these pieces and the workmanship on the cloisonne point to fakes, would guess Chinese, though they were and are made in numerous places. Would suggest having an expert look at them before offering them as genuine, perhaps I'm mistaken...

~Cheryl

 

better safe than sorry. even Giorgio from silvercollection induced a page about Russian fakes.
http://www.silvercollection.it/Russiancorner.html

 

That was my first feeling as well.
Book, they are lovely, but there is a lot of fake 'Russian' silver out there.
I hope you didn't pay too much, and the Danish silver makes up for it.

 

They really look like they match.

 

On the first one, it's with the kokoshnik to the right, with the greek letter alpha behind the kokoshnik, and the dates you give, on the second one it's not possible to read the letter for me, the makers are not on the Postnikova which goes to the war in date.
The quality of the official hallmark and the less quality for the work are in my opinion normal for communist era made silver after 1920 more than a copy.

The silversmiths make superb quality just after the war until 1920s when a lot of them goes to free countries with the help of governemnts as you can read in the biography of François Birbaum "Premier Maître du joaillier Fabergé" for example.
I'm not a specialist about first world war politic but certainly in other countries you can found this date too for a big amount of refugees from Russia.
About copies, if you can found in enamel small black dots and small pierced bubbles, it's a good sign of original piece, especially on small and cheap items.
They were a lot of small makers who use wood coal when the greater ones have gaz for heating enamel and it's was nearly impossible to prevent such problems.

 

Sounds reasonable regarding the quality of the work...


And to correct my other post (darned autocorrect), edible = incredible.


~Cheryl

 

The surface finish is very russian, they were not polished as in other countries, the Fabergé export silverware was polished for example as the customers need but the russian silversmith made a raw finish(or like sanded) when compared with european countries.

 

Yesterday, I presented both pieces to the 925-1000 Russian forum for Bookahtoo and while one of the members initially felt the salt was "not authentic", another posted maker IDs with citations from Postnikova-Loseva, there is now an ongoing discussion regarding the salt, and a good chance it will continue. The good news is, looks like, as Lecollectionneur suggests, they are authentic...

Salt: http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=51741

Spoon: http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=51742

~Cheryl

 

When they say that on this forum is a really good new because I've seen a lot of pieces certainly good which was discussed by some members as fakes, the more pleasant is that I've sold on Ebay a piece at a member which gives it as a fake one year before…
10 years ago I make a press article about fakes russian hallmarks which is on the web in english, it's another subject but it can interest you to know how I proceed at this time, now they are most sophisticated methods to be more sure if possible or needed.
I've found the second press article made in may 2003 about faking an Oklad with the lectrolysis proceed, it's in french but as a pdf easy to put in a translator, the pictures are not so good because not made with numeric but if it is some interest I can scan the originals which are archived.
The all first thing when you have a piece is to determine if it is a financial interest to make that item, here for a small piece without any name, it's totally idiot to make a copy which has a value under 150$ in good condition and to make false traces of age which can affect the value.
A lot of things can be make on a "tired" item to refresh it, a new gilding is the first one and here you are on a red line between a normal sale and a forgery, but if you mention that it's no more a problem, then it's a very fine red line to let this information for the next customer…