Blue Bottle

Discussion in 'Pottery, Glass, and Porcelain' started by Rastella, Feb 23, 2018.

  1. Rastella

    Rastella Everything is figureoutable.

    I really believe I may have something special here. It was crudely attached with silicone in an old handmade shadow box (story how I bought it below).

    The Attributes:

    The metal work is hand created.

    Except for a simple magnet test that did not stick, I have not tested the silver to confirm my observations:

    For the silver frame including base, side strips and neck - silver with signs of faded gold gilt.

    For the chain design (made to look like chain, but is not moveable like a chain) - copper with silver overlay.

    For the small 4 designs on side (two frogs, one dragon and one phoenix) - either sterling silver with signs of faded gold gilt - or quite possibly platinum as they do not show signs in the crevices of darkening. Granted, I'm sure this was cleaned but I compared it with the crevices in the silver frame which have darkened as would be expected.

    For the large dragon and phoenix - very possibly old gold. They do not have the same color nor the same aging signs as the silver frame work (more olive golden with no signs of silver peaking through even were gold gilt might have been) and the crevices have taken on a much blacker appearance with no rust. They feel more weighted and the effort to keep them in place is very apparent.

    The porcelain is a beautiful mirror-like solid cobalt blue with over glaze. Quoted from the metmuseum.org, "Porcelain decorated only in blue pigment painted under the glaze dominated the export trade until the very end of the seventeenth century."

    The bottom has the attributes of the well known export ware known as kraak with the deep middle indentation and the sandy-like grains from the kiln that adhered to the unglazed rim during firing.

    It looks like there is a maker's mark or stamp on the dragon's tail. I took it to a jeweler and when he looked at it under his magnifying equipment, I saw his eyes nearly pop out of his head. I just wanted to see if he could test the dragon for gold without hurting it which he could not do, so I thanked him and left. I took a closer look and discovered the design in the middle of the tail wasn't congruent and it looks like a maker's mark or stamp of some sort.

    How I found it: I just recently bought it through Facebook Marketplace. I was looking for a shadow box for my own things and came across one with some sort of Chinese brass metal object in it. The shadow box had been painted a couple of times so I thought it may be a good solid one that I could refinish. I contacted the seller and over the course of the conversation, she mentioned that she gave a matching shadow box to her friend. They were going to be tossed out so she thought she would see if she could get a little money for this one first. That made sense because it is right after Hurricane Harvey and there is a lot of cleaning up and tossing out going on in Houston. I told her if her friend wanted to sell hers, too, I would buy both of them so I could have a matching pair of shadow boxes. I met up with her husband the next morning and followed him to the friend's place. The friend gave him the second shadow box with this snuff bottle in it and he gave it to me. (I thought it was going to be another metal object and wasn't concerned with what was inside). He took the money and left. I turned to the friend and said, "Well, that doesn't seem quite fair." She responded, "Naw, it's alright. It didn't have any sentimental value." We talked and I ended up buying a small modern display sword from her for my grandson.

    The glass on the shadow box was rather thick and dirty so it was hard to tell anything other than it was a bottle. I took it to be nothing more than decoration. The shadow box was homemade and I was really happy with the wood. However, it looked as if it had been repaired and repainted several times. I began to dismantle it. When I got the backing off, I noticed the mounting job was really bad. The bottle was mounted to the back with a thick layer of silicone and the stopper was siliconed to the bottle. So thick that I couldn't see that there was a Phoenix on that side. As I began removing the silicone, which was a rather easy but very slow process, it started becoming apparent that this was a really old bottle. In fact, I have not removed all of the little bits of silicone as you can see in the pictures because I don't want to risk damaging it. No picture of phoenix side yet.

    I think it warrants further investigation. What should I do from here? Advice on honest and knowledgeable auction houses for Chinese snuff bottles? Thank you!


    Residual silicone from being attached to shadow box still shows on topper stem and some pictures. 20180223_104735.jpg 20180223_104759.jpg 20180223_104837.jpg 20180223_104850.jpg 20180223_104939.jpg 15194081348731283815698.jpg


    Residual silicone still shows on stem from being attached to bottle.
    20180223_105256.jpg
     
    pearlsnblume and Huntingtreasure like this.
  2. Rastella

    Rastella Everything is figureoutable.

    Lol I have no idea how I messed up that title so bad. I am trying to fix it.
     
  3. Rastella

    Rastella Everything is figureoutable.

    I can't quit laughing. How do I fix that dang title?!
     
  4. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly The worst prison is a closed heart

  5. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly The worst prison is a closed heart

    I don't remember exactly but isn't there an option near the title?
     
    Rastella likes this.
  6. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Oh dear. Hate to burst your bubble, but.....
    Lovely though it is, it has many siblings, probably thousands. I have several Chinese metal mounted porcelain snuff bottles, related to this bottle.
    The blue is not underglaze blue, the glaze itself is blue. Underglaze blue painted porcelain is still being made, by the way. The mount is base metal, with cast dragons, phoenix and frogs.
    It is mass produced, and they are still being made. Truly antique and valuable snuff bottles are very different.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
    judy and Rastella like this.
  7. Rastella

    Rastella Everything is figureoutable.

  8. daveydempsey

    daveydempsey Moderator Moderator

    I changed it for you, hope that is what you wanted.
     
    Any Jewelry likes this.
  9. Rastella

    Rastella Everything is figureoutable.

    Don't worry about busting my bubble, lol. Definitely want your opinion. Right, it is not an underglaze blue. May have said that wrong. Edited to say see my quote from the met museum. That is what i was trying to describe. Unless a jeweler can't distinguish silver from metal, it definitely is silver. Showed him personally and he verified silver. No magnets stick.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
    judy likes this.
  10. Rastella

    Rastella Everything is figureoutable.

    Perfect! Thank you!
     
    judy likes this.
  11. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Magnets don't stick to copper based alloys.
    I have a few hundred snuff bottles, mostly antique, so some experience with styles, etc. Silver mounts do not resemble this type, and no one would make a silver mount for a simple mass produced porcelain bottle. Did you see the blobs of solder?
    You don't have to believe me, best to check the metal for silver content yourself. Do you have a testing kit?
     
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  12. Rastella

    Rastella Everything is figureoutable.

    I will get one but I just realized that my pictures aren't clear enough. I'm not using my regular camera. Really disappointed in the picture of the bottom. Also, the frogs show differences that you can't see. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I don't think my pictures are conveying what I'm seeing in person. You see that gold remnant left under the base? (Even though the picture is bad). That is not copper or metal. It is gold gilt.
     
  13. Rastella

    Rastella Everything is figureoutable.

  14. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    judy and Rastella like this.
  15. Rastella

    Rastella Everything is figureoutable.

    Thank you! Also, I can see the hand cut tool marks on the metal (which I can't get a picture of on this phone.) Wish I'd just waited until my camera battery charged up.
     
  16. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Which is yet another sign of not so very good quality. Believe me, quality snuff bottles are near perfect to perfect in every detail. Feast your eyes on the links I gave you, I hope you can see the difference.
     
    Rastella likes this.
  17. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly The worst prison is a closed heart

    Here are side by side dragons using the ebay link, yours is cleaner. It also looks like it may be broken at the upper claw.

    upload_2018-2-23_14-36-5.png upload_2018-2-23_14-38-54.png
     
    Rastella and Any Jewelry like this.
  18. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Yes, those dragons are mass produced, just like the rest. You also find them on items like the so-called jade teapots, assembled of serpentine or glass rings.
     
    judy likes this.
  19. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Rastella likes this.
  20. Rastella

    Rastella Everything is figureoutable.

    So you are saying this is the same mold and same dragon? Just mine is cleaner? Thank you for taking the time to do a side by side. I appreciate it!
     
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