Chinese embroidery, learning experience

Always interested in learning about things I don't know about yet, and this forum has had a couple references to Chinese embroidery, something I had never known anything about before and would have ignored. But I came across these at an estate cleanout, and bought them (for not much money) to try to find out what these are and whether there is any market for these.

Both are in the same frames, I assume to be original and I think they are pre-1947 (since there is no area code on the phone number on label on back). I assume not much was coming from China during the war, so these probably date to the 30's or possibly earlier. Of course they could also be from Japan, maybe someone can tell by the work?

Hand-done embroidery on silk. But not the really fine work that is sometimes posted here, so my expectations aren't high. The first is missing the glass (it was broken so I removed the remaining pieces). Sorry I forgot to measure, but they are around 8-10 inches I think. I'll measure if it matters.

Teach me, please!

 

While these may be Chinese and silk, they are not actual antique pieces that were pieces of clothing, sleeves ends, altar cloths, collars, aprons, etc. One indicator is the simplicity of the stitch work. These have simple broad stiches throughout. Another factor is design - actual antiques are full of symbolism and many are three dimensional art works. I couldn't date your pieces for you but after the last Chinese dynasty (1912), probably for the tourist market. I am no expert though, just a collector.

 

The seven digit phone number and lack of zip code puts the framing squarely into the 50s or early 60s, and the embroidery jibes with that. Asian art was popular in the Kennedy era.

 

If you Google (or check eBay) for: Chinese silk embroidery panel, you'll find many examples.

I have purchased these (unframed), but because I like them, not for resale. I believe that most are machine stitched.

 

It's a question, isn't it: do you know embroidery well enough to tell the difference between hand work and machine-made?

 

Some pieces are quite easy as the variations are evident or where the techniques are various such as the seed or knotted stitch along with satin stitch. There was a lot of creativity in Chinese silk embroidery, so a row of bats will have various wing shapes and sizes or figures will have actual expressions rather than just lines. Sometimes you can see the different hands that worked a piece, some with more skill than others. What I find hard to determine is a fairly skilled hand versus early machine work especially when the subject matter is not very complex.

 

(deleted because it was still annoying me, even after my next message)

 

I feel that I should not write responses at two in the morning when I can't sleep and that the post sounds much different than I intended.

Mostly way more dismissive and arrogant than I ever intend to be. My apologies.

What I meant to say was machine-stitched does not equal bad, unattractive, or without value. Just that, by its very nature, machine stitched generally means mass-produced.

 

I agree. It's all a matter of what you are interested in. I fell in love with Chinese silk embroidery when I saw my first dragon robe exhibit. I admire the skill set and creativity as manifested through this woman's art form. In my mind, this is best expressed through hand work. I have the same sensibility with other forms as well and like hand carved rocks versus machine and furniture built by a craftsman rather than a factory.

 

When did machine stitching start? I could take it out of the frame if it's ambiguous, but I assumed it was hand-done, just not fine work. Area code started in 1947, zip code in 1963. Lack of area code made me think pre 1950's. Hand labor was still very cheap in China in the 50's.

 

Machine stitching started in the first half of the 19th century.

I don't know when significant mass production started, but it was definitely around by WWI. One of my favorite web sites has an excellent series on the WWI post cards that were machine embroidered: https://trc-leiden.nl/trc-digital-e...postcards/item/69-the-hand-embroidery-machine

 

Yes, but that was in Europe. I doubt they had expensive machines like that in China until later? They've had machines to make rugs in Europe/US for a similar length of time, but rugs from East/Middle East were still handmade until I would guess mid/late 20th century. Am I wrong?

 

When the machinery arrived in China, I do not know.

 

great site Jivvy, thanks for posting it

 

The whole question of when the machinery arrived in China has me wondering, but, as best I can tell, none of my pieces like this survived the last move.

I was about to go after one with a seam ripper and expose the back, but there are none to be found.

The severely limited palette, the severely limited number of stitch types, the simplicity/crudeness of the design, the simplicity/crudeness of the stitching, the thickness of the thread, the single layer of thread, the appearance of zig-zag ... all this screams "machine stitched" to me.

Is it possible it's cheap labor? Maybe. I don't think so.

 

The presence of an area code or zip code would indicate 'no earlier than' dating, but the lack of those numbers doesn't indicate 'no later than' dating (unless a record of when a company included those numbers on their labels or marks exists) - there was certainly no requirement that the area code or zip code be included on a label and a firm may have purchased large quantities of labels that were used for many years. 'Benet Gallery' in Stoughton, MA was incorporated in 1974, doesn't seem to still be in business, but both principals appear to still be alive at current ages 73 and 71.

After we resumed trade with China in the '70s, Chinese items were all over the place by the '80s, - can recall looking through stacks of similar quality Chinese silk pieces in import shops, with fabric backs read to be stuffed for pillows, also remember seeing them framed...

~Cheryl

 

Thanks, Cheryl, good idea to look up the business. I looked up the same listing that I assume you saw, trying to understand what it says: https://www.bizapedia.com/ma/benet-gallery-inc.html

Yes, looks like it was started in 70's. Surprised no area code or zip put on a label made up that late, but that seems to be the case.

China was very poor and overpopulated then (that's when they started 1 child policy), so I do think these were likely handmade, but probably done like carpets were in mass-production settings. So not with the artistry of previous work.

 

In our area, while we certainly had area codes in the '70s, very few people used them locally since the area code was the same for half the state, and Stoughton, MA still has only one zip code, can't see why it would have been necessary to place it on a shop label that just gives the location, not even the real address (back then, you could even mail a letter without the zip code and it would still be delivered).

Not sure why there seems to be the impression that area codes or zip codes had to be included on packaging or labels - the absense of those numbers is not a reliable way to date something...

~Cheryl

 

But what is it about the stitching makes you think they're hand done?

 

It seems to me a logical supposition. There was a lot of cheap labor in China in the 70's-80's, so the work would have been done by hand by default. Not unlike carpets or starving artist artwork that was done as piece work and to replicate given patterns, but none-the-less handmade. It wouldn't make sense to buy and program an expensive machine to produce work that was going to sell cheaply and could be made more cheaply by hand. A piece like this wouldn't have been expensive in its day, any more than it is expensive now.

Today it is different, of course, as machines have taken over more and more of what used to be hand production and there are probably more factory machines in China than there are in the US or Europe. Do you want me to remove this from the frame?