Featured Greek, from 14-1600s

Discussion in 'Antique Discussion' started by Kristinpersson, May 16, 2019 at 12:46 PM.

  1. I have a question to the “pro” here in antiquers. This painting on wood it’s very old. The owner says it’s from 1600s and for 25 years ago did she got it value. 3000 $. (Why does it say 1420)
    The painting depicts Saint Martin who puts his mantle on his disciples.

    Does any one knows if antiques like this
    raises or lowers over the years.

    She bought it 1930 in greek.


    C75B451C-45FC-461F-8DC8-D4E3882AD140.jpeg 44335456-971E-4D18-9038-9A0D42DA0486.jpeg 1FF8845F-33D2-4622-9FBA-2F57207F6686.jpeg 03B34AD4-071E-476D-99BD-8775AEB1D7D6.jpeg
     
  2. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    I can only comment on the subject, which is not st Martin.
    At the top is the prophet Ezekiel in his fiery chariot, as he hands his fur robe to his successor. The man in the lower right hand corner is the same man as the one seen receiving the robe on the left.
    The fur or fur-lined robe is the symbol of prophets.

    St Martin cut of part of his cloak to give to a beggar. He is depicted on horseback as he cuts the cloak with his sword.

    Does the owner have proof of the valuation?
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 1:18 PM
  3. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    Doubt it does. Needs to be re-examined with Greek in mind. I'm not making anything of it right off, but has become somewhat effaced.
     
  4. Dawnno

    Dawnno Well-Known Member

    to paraphrase from a now antique space movie: "I am not the pro you are looking for". But I am a devout skeptic. Why is the red halo painted OVER the gold crackle finish?
    http://www.gold-vault.com/distressed_finishes.html
    Seems like an applied finish.
    upload_2019-5-16_13-15-55.png vs upload_2019-5-16_13-16-24.png \
    first one is from site above.
     
  5. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    Although Greek uses letters to write numerals. It's not making any sense that way either. Think I'm seeing iota ? omega omicron.
     
  6. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    @Kristinpersson Is this something you are thinking about buying? Caveat emptor. I do not see anything that supports owner's claims of age & value. And, as AJ pointed out, they do not even have a correct understanding of the image.
     

  7. THANK YOU! I was searching for sankt Martin and what she said did not match. I think she mixed together something. The lady is very old but i know she have only have quality. (Cited from: https://www.antiquers.com/threads/greek-from-14-1600s.37796/)
     
  8. She want me to sell it for her. Im not going to buy it. I just wonder if any of you could help me understand it :)
     
  9. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

  10. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    And note the etsy description of how made:

    wood silkscreen, ageing technique, antique technique,
     
  11. clutteredcloset49

    clutteredcloset49 Well-Known Member

    I'd be really leary about making claims on this piece if you know nothing about it.

    Frankly, I prefer the sea otter on the back.

    upload_2019-5-16_10-46-39.png
     
  12. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

  13. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

  14. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    I guess it could be either, prophets tended to be taken up to the heavens in fiery chariots. They both had prophet's robes as well.

    We need someone who knows Greek iconography, @Mat maybe?

    But either way, I would not sell it without a proper appraisal.
     
  15. Aquitaine

    Aquitaine Is What It IS!!!

  16. McAdder

    McAdder Active Member

    That is an assumption you should never make. Fakes are not a modern thing, if something is worth a lot of money it has always been faked and sold to people who thought they buy a real antique.
    In the days before the internet it was not so easy to find comparative pieces and information, you had to trust the seller, if you were not an expert yourself.

    I have found few gems surrounded by trash, but many fakes surrounded by quality.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 2:30 PM
  17. Dawnno

    Dawnno Well-Known Member

    I stand corrected: Star Wars is only a "vintage" space movie. [but in my defense the Greek image does show 'ancient aliens' in a 'chariot of the gods']. :)

    Back on topic: Real gold leaf doesn't darken. The lacquered overall shine, and the lack of detail, lack of allegorical annotations, all things I don't like viz a viz dating the piece as centuries old. If you have a semi-literate audience in a church being immersed in the allegories, they had annotations, so nobody was guessing. Like the piece leaves us to do.
     
  18. antidiem

    antidiem Well-Known Member

    Really great catch, @Dawnno ; I thought it may be an applied finish too, then I saw your post. The red halo without crackle is curious and somehow significant, although I don't have the energy to try to figure it out.

    I cannot tell if the gold leaf has been overpainted with varnish or is shadowed. It may be less pure gold leaf than what I am accustomed to seeing. I have had silver leaf too, so it's possible the gold leaf was impure before it was applied, or not even gold leaf at all. It's stuck on there firmly, not "damaged" like the chariot above it appears to have some rub wear damages?
     
    Dawnno, kyratango, Bronwen and 2 others like this.
  19. C2C5AE86-F41C-4EAC-9C8D-E7292FBECE6F.jpeg BF787ED0-1432-4227-9902-BDA061B20DA8.jpeg 444D33D8-FFF9-42BA-B724-D9D264F3DAA5.jpeg 249696C9-D8BF-4163-B78D-A1EC1DEBF878.jpeg 096D20EC-EDF9-4BB2-B4DC-BAC9A5D09D50.jpeg Im confused like someone sad: we didn’t have internet before and it’s a lots of copies out here.

    Now to number 2... icon. She sad that the wooden shutters is older then the men in the center. Also old. She is s person who never should pay for copies.. but who knows, maybe she got cheated
     
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  20. Dawnno

    Dawnno Well-Known Member

    so, what do you make of this sequence?
    upload_2019-5-16_14-51-0.png

    the white border line was painted onto the gold leaf (blue bracket). Then you look to the three blue lines inside the halo, and see that it the halo was made even 'brighter' - perhaps for aethestics. The red halo is over the rest of the 'equivalent' brightness of surrounding gold and the area by the white line.

    So I agree that there was a shadow/wash added to the gold under the dropping robe to the hands, to show a connection in the overall image.

    So the darkening is intentional, i think now. So then, that crackle had to crackle before the guy in red was even painted. Does gold leaf 'crackle' during drying?

    This is what one expert says:
    http://albumen.conservation-us.org/library/c20/michalski1991.html
    "Some gilding cracks, some does not, even after centuries. It is generally accepted that relative humidity fluctuations are somehow the cause for the cracking of gilding, but no clear explanation exists."

    Not to drag on too long, but I have found nothing that suggests anything but the gesso under the leaf crackles, causing the pigments and leaf on top to crack.

    https://www.khanacademy.org/humanit...painting-materials-techniques/v/tempera-paint
    for an 11 min crash course in gold early renaissance paintings in egg tempera.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 4:51 PM
    Christmasjoy, Bronwen, KSW and 2 others like this.
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