Help date these shards.

Discussion in 'Pottery, Glass, and Porcelain' started by J Dagger, Jun 28, 2020 at 7:56 PM.

  1. J Dagger

    J Dagger Well-Known Member

    85DC041C-A18A-4C0D-8FBC-F0CC7AEE3358.jpeg Was metal detecting recently and found these shards in a hole. I found a civil war related item nearby but thought that these shards looked older than that possibly. Just trying to get an idea of what other era might be represented on that parcel. Obviously these could have been dropped there well after the dish was made but I would like an idea. Looks like hand painted decoration rather than transferware to me.
     
    Any Jewelry likes this.
  2. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly STAY SAFE The worst prison is a closed heart

    Something about the decoration is ringing bells somewhere in the back of my head. I'll think about it and hope someone else recognizes it.

    Usually to try to evaluate a sherd it's helpful to have a cleaned view of the body so the side of the sherd as well as the back. It can help to know the thickness, the glaze and the curve or flatness. It appears to be some type of earthenware but hard to tell for sure from this photo. Unless you already know, one way you can tell (once it's clean and dry) is to place the broken edge against your tongue. Earthenware will feel like it "sticks" a bit while porcelain just feels like something touched your tongue.
     
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  3. J Dagger

    J Dagger Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the advice! I didn’t get a chance to clean them up yet but here’s some more photos with a penny for scale. A week or so ago I was detecting a little piece of conservation land that people walk their dogs at. Ended up chatting with a guy who eventually told me the site had been used to dump toxic waste at back in the day! Awesome that I had been digging and playing in it for hours. I am less likely to lick stuff thats been in the ground for a long time now, but I’ll brave it out!
    B6857B31-2F53-434F-9CD5-950885376F2E.jpeg 0DF27FE2-5A4B-4AB9-9227-C2665848FD21.jpeg 47395C58-47E5-421C-B16D-3C5A5845E688.jpeg
     
  4. Ownedbybear

    Ownedbybear Well-Known Member

    That's a tin glaze.
     
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  5. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly STAY SAFE The worst prison is a closed heart

    It's tough to evaluate a piece from a photo especially when it's dirty but from the the way the break appears here, I'm thinking it may be porcelain. The little break-over seems to have some sheen.

    I usually think of tin-glaze like a piece of frosted cake. A somewhat coarse body with a slab of frosting just sitting on the top. Hard to tell from the photo, maybe when you get a chance to clean it up (and maybe give it a little taste) it will become clearer.

    upload_2020-7-1_9-2-11.png
     
  6. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly STAY SAFE The worst prison is a closed heart

    I will say that now you know it was used as a dump site, unless you've found your items in an undisturbed context the age will be of less value (even if it can be determined).

    A little story, years ago I was working on a farm with a landowner digging an 18th/early 19th C cellar and ice house. He knew that the land had been used for sod at one time and that some of the sod went to a football stadium. We did a few tests on the field just next to this one (that had never been in sod) and found that the field where we were digging had up to 12" less topsoil so potentially lots of artifact went out with the sod. The sod was regularly torn out of the football stadium and presumably dumped somewhere. We mused about how someday someone was going to be finding 18th C artifacts (and probably some Native American) that they would never know had no connection to where they were finding them unless they did some significant research.
     
    Bakersgma likes this.
  7. J Dagger

    J Dagger Well-Known Member

    I’ll clean it and get back to you, maybe even taste lol. Thanks for the insight. I’m a total pottery noob. The dump site mentioned was actually a different place altogether. This I think was likely undisturbed. I don’t have much time in at this spot but I look forward to getting back there. Spent most of yesterday at an incredibly old farm busting my ass and found absolutely nothing of interest! I assume it’s been hit hard in the past. That’s a great story! Lots of fill is used around these parts and I can only imagine the artifacts that get moved around. A guy I chatted with recently found a late 1700’s Spanish 2 Reale that he assumes must have come in with some fill.
     
  8. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly STAY SAFE The worst prison is a closed heart

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  9. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly STAY SAFE The worst prison is a closed heart

    I found an example of the Phoenix pattern on this good archaeology website where they say that earliest print record of this pattern was 1914. This is their example with yours set on top for comparison. Yours could be something else of course, especially if it isn't porcelain.

    https://apps.jefpat.maryland.gov/di...es/JapaneseHardPastePorcelain-thumbnails.html
    upload_2020-7-1_22-50-54.png

    Japanese porcelain printed underglaze in blue on plate in Phoenix
    Bird
    pattern. Printed “Made in Japan” on reverse. Ross (2012:18)
    dates the earliest print reference to this pattern to 1914, with
    simultaneous appearance in North America.
     
  10. J Dagger

    J Dagger Well-Known Member

    Oh wow! This was in your head!? Pretty impressive head! I would say if this isn’t it that it would surprising. Your laying of my pieces over the example is pretty convincing from where I’m sitting. Guess I was way off on my age estimation if so. Interesting pattern to find here. Thank you

     
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  11. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly STAY SAFE The worst prison is a closed heart

    No problem, hope it's correct:)
     
    J Dagger likes this.
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