HELP HERE OIL PAINTING WHAT DO I HAVE TREASURE OR FAKE?

Discussion in 'Art' started by SUPERJUNK1970, Dec 4, 2020.

  1. SUPERJUNK1970

    SUPERJUNK1970 Member

    I was looking to purchase an first easter dawn poster when I saw this being sold as a damage painting.
    At first I thought it was a modern reproduction because the artist signature and date looked newer than the painting and I noticed the date had an alteration from 1586 to 1886..
    At this point I was thinking cut it and touch up MISSING or cracked paint.
    I started dusting the front and back when I NOTICED on the back writting. I used a uv light to ser the YEAR F 1497 and below the words Davids Anunciation.
    I dont know if this is the year and tittle of the painting on front , or the name and year of a painting covered by the painting on front. What do you think? 20201202_074044-ccfopt.jpg 20201202_074155-ccfopt.jpg 20201203_233455-ccfopt.jpg 20201203_234201-ccfopt.jpg 20201203_001012-ccfopt.jpg 20201203_075712-ccfopt.jpg 20201202_074211-ccfopt.jpg 20201203_022538-ccfopt.jpg
     
    ulilwitch and Lucille.b like this.
  2. Debora

    Debora Well-Known Member

    I think 1886 about right. And appears to be the work of an amateur painter. By way, here's Gerard David's The Annunciation which was painted in 1506.

    Debora

    main-image.jpg
     
    Siető Csilla, Figtree3 and Lucille.b like this.
  3. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    Perhaps a copy of a section of some other painting of the Nativity - angels on high - rather than the Annunciation which features only the angel Gabriel.
     
    Figtree3, ulilwitch and Lucille.b like this.
  4. Debora

    Debora Well-Known Member

    It looks more inspired by the German Romantic era. Here's 'Angels in Adoration' by Caspar David Friedrich.

    Debora

    angel-in-prayer-caspar-david-friedrich.jpg
     
  5. SUPERJUNK1970

    SUPERJUNK1970 Member

    OH! THATS PROBABLY WHAT IT SUPPOSED TO SAY. GERARD DAVIDS
    ANNUNCIATION.
    " NOT SAYING THIS IS ART BY THAT ARTIST "
    I ACTUALLY THOUGHT IT REFERRED TO KING DAVIDS CORONATION BUT THE WORD ANNUNCIATION BECAME CLEARER WITH UV LIGHT.
    DURING RESEARCH I DID RUN INTO THOSE PANELS AND I THINK THERE WERE MORE THAN TWO . SOME ARE MISSING.
    I NOTICED THAT THERE ARE 5 ANGEL WINGS BUT ONLY TWO ANGELS.
    THAT IS WHY I THOUGHT IT WAS PAINTED OVER ANOTHER PAINTING.
    ALSO TO ME THE DATE IN FRONT LOOKS RECENT. ITS NOT FLAT LIKE THE REST OF PAINTING AND COLOR IS BRIGHTER.
    I ALSO READ THAT THE ORIGINALART FOR "FIRST EASTER DAWN." WAS NOT A PAINTING BUT A LITHOGRAPH IN THE LATE 1880'S. WOULD THIS BE A COPY OF THAT LITHOGRAPH OR DOES AN ACTUAL PAINTING FOR THE ART EXIST .
     
  6. Mark London

    Mark London Well-Known Member

    no need to YELL!
     
  7. AntiqueBytes

    AntiqueBytes Well-Known Member

    Some people need to write in all caps because of bad eyesight.
     
  8. SUPERJUNK1970

    SUPERJUNK1970 Member

    IM NOT TRYING TO YELL, I HAVE BAD VISION AND I HAVE A HARD TIME SEEING WHAT I WRITE IN LOWER CAPS. SORRY ABOUT THAT.

    BACK TO THE PAINTING.
    THERE IS A SMALL REPAIR AND A MEDIEVAL SWORD IN WHITE MARKED ON THE FRAME . ARE THOSE TWO ORIGINAL TO THE ART OR DONE MUCH LATER.? 20201204_113708-ccfopt.jpg 20201204_113629-ccfopt.jpg 20201202_080928-ccfopt.jpg
     
  9. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    We have an easy way around that !!
    Without using caps............:meh:
     
    BoudiccaJones, reader and Van_Poperin like this.
  10. Debora

    Debora Well-Known Member

    So you've identified the original work... 'The First Easter Dawn.' By B. Hall. Published by J. Latham & Co. of Boston. 1876-1885. I do suspect yours was copied from a print. But this purports to be a copy of the original oil painting. No way of knowing when damage to canvas was done.

    Debora

    s-l400.jpg
     
    aaroncab and 2manybooks like this.
  11. SUPERJUNK1970

    SUPERJUNK1970 Member

    WAS THE PRINT EVER A PAINTING?
    I WOULD THINK THAT SOMEONE WHO HAS THE TALENT TO CREATE THE PRINT CAN ALSO PAINT.
    MOST OF THE TIME I HEAR SOMEONE CREATES A PAINTING AND THEN MAKES MORE MONEY BY SELLING PRINTS OF IT.
    I COULD NOT FIND ANY INFO . THAT WOULD SAY THE PRINT IS BASED ON ANY PAINTING.
    PS: I KNEW OF THE PRINT , THAT IS WHAT GOT ME STARTED LOOKING FOR THE PAINTING. AND THE. I SAW THE WRITING ON BACK AND THE MODIFIED DATE AFTER THAT I WASNT SURE IF IT WAS REAL OR AN ATTEMPT TO FAKE AN ORIGINAL..
    I TOOK MORE PICTURES USING THE UV LIGHT. 20201204_225546-ccfopt.jpg 20201204_225743-ccfopt.jpg 20201204_225743-ccfopt.jpg 20201204_225842-ccfopt.jpg 20201204_225546-ccfopt-ccfopt.jpg
     
  12. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    The earliest version of the image that I have found is the chromolithograph published by J. Latham & Co. of Boston.
    https://www.ebay.it/itm/Antique-The...5&algv=default&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219

    In 1879, J. Latham & Co acquired the National Chromo Company of Philadelphia, which specialized in "parlor prints". The business ceased in 1885.
    https://digital.librarycompany.org/islandora/object/digitool:79596/print

    I think it is most likely that your painting is an amateur copy of the original chromolithograph print, as @Debora suggested.

    But your primary interest seems to be whether the painting you have is painted over an earlier painting, based on information you can see written on the back.

    The stretcher the canvas is mounted on is indicative of a 19th century date (or later). Stretchers with keys to adjust the size became common in the 19th century, replacing earlier "strainers" which were frames with fixed corners.

    It might also be helpful to determine the type of canvas used. If the fiber is cotton, (as opposed to linen), it is likely to be 19th century or later.

    It can be helpful to look closely at the edge of the canvas, where it is folded over the stretcher and nailed on. If an older canvas from before the era of stretchers was reused and remounted, there would be more than one series of tacking holes along the edge. There might also be evidence of additional layers of paint, or additional layers of canvas if an older painting had been relined and remounted.
     
    Siető Csilla and Houseful like this.
  13. SUPERJUNK1970

    SUPERJUNK1970 Member

    Thank you very much for your answers.
    The information you provided is very helpful to me.
    I'm an amateur treasure hunter and often think I have something special
    But without experience or someone knowledgeble like yourself that lends a few words of knowledge to dreamer .I would just be lost and hoard wordless things.
    Thanks
     
    2manybooks likes this.
  14. SUPERJUNK1970

    SUPERJUNK1970 Member

    20210813_134556-ccfopt.jpg I got a better picture.
    I believe it says
    Top= F 1492
    Bottom= Davide ghirlandaio
     
  15. SUPERJUNK1970

    SUPERJUNK1970 Member

    My bad David , not Davide.
     
  16. SUPERJUNK1970

    SUPERJUNK1970 Member

    The painting has been retouched many times over the years.
    A good cleaning might reveal a better painting.
     
  17. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    I really can't see what you see on the back of the canvas, even with the better photograph. You may need a more sophisticated method of enhancing the writing, either through computer manipulation, or different photographic techniques such as infrared photography. David (Davide) Ghirlandaio was an Italian artist of the Renaissance, 1452-1525. (You previously thought it said "David Annunciation".)

    Linen canvas began to be used as a support for paintings around the year 1500. It is highly unlikely that a canvas from the end of the 15th century would have survived without being lined, at a minimum, which would have covered over any writing that may have been on the canvas originally. So, if the canvas was lined, the writing you are seeing would have been added later.

    I know you have been interested in learning if the painting you have was painted over another, and it would be a real coup to find a hidden Ghirlandaio. Artists did sometimes use an older canvas to paint their own work on top of. Did you examine the edges to see if there is evidence of the painting having been lined, or been mounted to a stretcher/strainer more than once? A paintings conservator might be able to tell if there is another painting with a careful examination and small samples. One way to determine if there is a hidden painting is to have it x-rayed.
     
  18. SUPERJUNK1970

    SUPERJUNK1970 Member

    I DID THINK THAT IT SAID DAVID ANUNCIATION ON THE BACK.
    BUT I THOUGHT IT DID NOT MAKE SENCE TO HAVE TWO DIFFERENT DATES , ONE FOR ARTIST AND CREATION DATE AND ONE FOR TITTLE.
    SO I FIGURED ONE HAD TO BE WRONG. I USED THE YEAR ON BACK TO SEARCH FOR ARTIST DAVID I RAN INTO DAVID GHIRLANDAIO THAT LIVED DURING THAT YEAR , I ALSO NOTICED THAT HIS LAST NAME HAD A PUNCTUATION MARK ON THE LAST "Ï", SO I CHECKED THE WORD THAT I THOUGH SAID ANNUNCIATION AND IT ALSO HAD THAT MARK. I ALSO NOTICED THAT IN SEVERAL WEBSITES THEY SPELLED HIS LAST NAME WITH A LOWER CASE g THAT WOULD GIVE THE APPEARANCE OF AN A WHEN JOINT WITH THE H IN GHIRLANDAIO.
    I ALSO THINK THAT THE NAME AND DATE ON FRONT WAS ALMOST GONE AND THE PERSON WHO SIGNED IT MADE IT UP. AS YOU CAN SEE THE NAME STARTS WITH A G AND IT HAS ABOUT THE SAME LENGTH AS GHIRLANDAIO, I DONT THINK THE PERSON SAW THE INSCRIPTION ON BACK. . I DONT KNOW WHERE TO GET THE PAINTING X-RAY.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page