Help with NC corner cupboards and stepback

Hi group. We recently bought 3 pieces and would love help confirming (or debunking) what we think we know and insight into values.

First 6 photos are #1. Photos 7&8 are #2. 9&10 are #3

#1 - walnut corner cupboard. Front is built like a picture frame without legs and mortise and tenon joints securing to the back. Doors are all mortise and tenon as well. Hand forged HL hinges secured with rosehead nails. Wavy glass. Locks appear to have been replaced. Believe to be late 1700s or early 1800s. Roughly 85” x 49”. Back is comprised of 3 vertical boards per side. Shelving has small wooden plate rails (possibly added later). High level of craftsmanship.

#2 - corner cupboard. I believe it to be walnut. This cupboard is in rough shape but it intrigued us. Completely built with rosehead nails - sides and back. Mortise and tenon door joints. It appears that is was cut down a very long time ago as the ends of the wood are as aged as the rest. However, it appeared to have had an upper door (lower hinge cutouts on each side). The bottom is missing but it’s still amazingly sturdy. We feel this is an early piece (1700s?) due to the liberal use of rose heads.

#3 - pine stepback. More primitive. Use of what I think are Type B cut nails. Screws for knobs appear to be hand cut. Thinking around mid-1800s due to nails and screws. Interesting scallop detail - I’ve not seen another similar.
The bottom is literally almost all one board. Horizontal tongue and groove back boards.
87.25” tall. 36” wide. Base portion 19.5” deep and upper 14.5” deep.

 

nice pieces !!

 

Thank you!

 

@Ghopper1924
@verybrad

 

Let me start out by saying that I am not an expert in early American furniture but have been around long enough to see a bit. I think all three are pine. Old growth furniture grade pine has long straight grain, without knots. I am least sure about #2. Better pictures might help but this is what I am seeing in these pics.

I pretty much agree with your dating. I do think #1 to be early 19th century. Agree that #2 could be either 18th or 19th century. #3 is a piece made by someone other than a cabinet maker. Hesitate to call it a folk piece but more a country vernacular piece. Would think mid to late 19th century.

I don't know enough about Southern furniture to tell if these are Southern in origin or not. It would affect value positively if they are. You are best to consult with someone better versed as to value.

 

Very Brad - after looking at #1 again, I think you’re right on the pine. I should have picked up on it - our house is all built with heart pine. I’ll edit my original post to reflect. I don’t have # 2 home yet - I’ll get it Wednesday but the grain on the face boards is much more like another Walnut corner cupboard we have (possibly a Swisegood or Swisegood school).
#3 is definitely primitive/folksy. Theres a few elements that show the maker tried to do better work that just nail some board together like the bottom skirt board being somewhat crudely beveled at the top, but definitely not fine craftsmanship.

At this point, I can’t definitely say they are NC pieces, but they came from a fairly remote part of southern NC (Montgomery and Anson counties) where they resided for a long time.

 

I live in New England and have been collecting 200 year old American antiques for a very long time and although I usually agree with Brad, I have a different opinion on these. I don’t have any North Carolina pieces, but do have many pieces from the time period you purport these to be from, and I don’t see authentic pieces here based on the pics shown.

Better pics could possibly change that, but I highly recommend that you send your better pics not to us (only) but also to an auctioneer that specializes in North Carolina furniture, lelandlittle.com. If any of these look authentic to them they will give you a much more believable assessment than the anonymous pickers you find on this forum.

[strike that for komokwa and replace with the following:]

The contributors to this site are a disparate bunch of people with interest in antiques for different reasons: pickers, collectors, general enthusiasts, lovers of research, puzzle solvers, etc. But we are all anonymous, and we are all generalists who rarely share expertise in the exact field you are looking for. In this case you want someone who has seen a lot of authentic early North Carolina country furniture, and you will not find an expert on that here. So you shouldn’t completely trust anything we say, especially because we are dealing with limited pictures that probably don’t fully represent the reality of the piece.

Sometimes this disparate group reaches consensus, sometimes it doesn’t, but even when it reaches consensus that consensus is sometimes wrong. Therefore to get the best advice on authenticity and value, you should go with a real expert in the field you need. The good thing is their advice is free, and a great resource in this case would be to consult with lelandlittle.com, an auction company that specializes in antique North Carolina furniture. Here are some of their recent corner cabinets: https://www.lelandlittle.com/result...A%22desc%22%7D%7D&search_terms=corner+cabinet

If you do that, please update this thread with their opinions.

 

Whoa.......... Your opinions are as insightful as anyone's on this site , and likely even more so in this area of your expertise !

But

" .a much more believable assessment than the anonymous pickers you find on this forum."

I'm sorry to have to say , that I find this comment of yours overtly personal & lacking in the friendly nature of this site .

Komokwa

 

It was shorthand for the purpose of this site, which is for pickers to identify authenticity and value, and certainly not personal. What person was it personal to?

But I get your point, so I replaced with a much more long winded explanation that I believe is more accurate. But man, that was a lot of typing!

 

I'm not sure I identify with that assessment. Kind of painting everyone with the same brush, don't you think?

 

I actually think Jeff and I are pretty much in agreement. As I stated up front, I am not an expert in early American furniture. That should put anything I have to say about these subject to verification. I also indicated that pictures were inadequate for a real assessment. We both agree that someone with expertise in Southern furniture is best to be consulted. I do think these pieces are antique.

I guess I would like some clarification regarding this statement. What do you see?

 

What person?
You commented on the people here...not just the item,,,, so...many persons !

You dealt with that concern.... so , good on you....and I'm ready to move forward !

 

Oh boy, here comes a whole lot more typing.

The reason I am trying to keep it short is that there have been pickers and collectors who come on here and want to believe the stuff they bought was real, and then want to engage in long-winded battles and put downs instead of having a real discussion. I am not interested in the former, and am trying to restrict real discussions to those who have a good base of knowledge. Since that latter definitely includes you, Brad, and since you asked the question, I will take time to answer in detail. Bearing in mind that we really should have much better pics before spending more time on this - new pics sometimes take things in a whole new direction.

So what do I see that concerns me, meaning not that it proves fakery yet but that these are things I expect to be different so need further examination and exploration.

Pic 1 - lack of legs and what looks from here to be reproduction dentil moulding. Lack of handles on lower doors can be ok if always opened with key, but still usually added when key lost or misplaced.

Pic 2 - H-l hinges look rustic on exposed visible parts but factory done in the business part where the hinge pin is. Nor do I think they would be a typical choice for a dining room piece, more likely found in a stable/barn.

Pic 3 - mortise for center rail looks ok, though thinner than I would expect, not a major concern

Pic 4 - is this inside door? Looks ok other than very sharp edges on wood pieces, so this piece has never been painted, put that on list as unusual but not catastrophic.

Pic 5 - this is interior, and does not show the age I would expect, too clean and sharp. Where is all the mouse poop (joke). Of the surfaces shown, these are also the ones that would get the least attention in remakes.

Pic 6 - this bothers me - looks like a pinned joint (which would be good) but you don’t pin lap joints, and you especially don’t pin them inches from the lap unless there is a mortise in there we don’t see (better pics or in person evaluation).

So a lot I see in first piece unexplained without better pics.

Second piece even worse pics. Bothered on this piece by lack of legs, cutsie round corners all being present, door panels being made of two instead of one piece of wood, exposed nails holding up shelves, too far away to see more.

Third piece has legs finally, but wheels unexpected, appreciate underneath shot (best picture location of all) but too dark to make much out. Round leg cutout in this pic seems possibly recent.

So in summary, if I was looking for N Carolina rustic pieces and had only these pics to go on, I would pass. But I am only one opinion, which is why getting an expert specialist like the auction site is really called for here.

 

No one likes to be told that what they have.... is not what they think they have !

Folks who come here for help, and then push back against what they perceive to be opinions that do not line up with what they are hoping to hear from us , can make for a combative thread !

No one here likes that....... but this site, is so much more !!!

 

Thanks all. I’ll be getting better pics hopefully today of #1 and possibly #3. I still need to get #2 but with the weather today I may not be able.

 

All excellent points and things I did not necessarily take into consideration. I am used to looking at furniture that is less than 150 years old and factory made. If I have any expertise, it is in 20th century furniture and decorative arts. I guess I took at face value that these would be original pieces. I am glad I prefaced my remarks with a disclaimer.

Agree and I appreciate the OP's willingness to provide them.

I hope this happens and, if so, that the OP will share what is found out about these pieces.

 

More to come.
Now that I have it stood up, a couple call outs.
Hinges on upper doors and right bottom door all appear original to piece. Bottom left door shows having traditional hinges at one point, repaired, and replaced with a “four nail” hinges. I’m guessing the original hinges (HL) broke, got replaced, and then replaced again.
Shelves in the upper portion have been moved - probably when plate rails were added.
Back boards are secured with rosehead nails.
Unsure about the little brass hand stamped “Eric” tag - clearly newer screws.
Windows have been poorly re-glazed
As previously mentioned, latches/locks are not original to piece
Back “leg” is added - not original
Thin vertical pieces on backside are more modern additions to cover gaps

 

More pics

 

Apologies if some are posted twice. Having to convert image size etc.

 

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More to come.
Now that I have it stood up, a couple call outs.
Hinges on upper doors and right bottom door all appear original to piece. Bottom left door shows having traditional hinges at one point, repaired, and replaced with a “four nail” hinges. I’m guessing the original hinges (HL) broke, got replaced, and then replaced again.
Shelves in the upper portion have been moved - probably when plate rails were added.
Back boards are secured with rosehead nails.
Unsure about the little brass hand stamped “Eric” tag - clearly newer screws.
Windows have been poorly re-glazed
As previously mentioned, latches/locks are not original to piece
Back “leg” is added - not original
Thin vertical pieces on backside are more modern additions to cover gaps