Featured Indian brass and copper kohl bottle, how old please.

The latest addition to my modest kohl bottle collection.
Kohl or kajal is eye make up, traditionally applied for (magical) protective or medicinal reasons as well as beauty. In India it was used by men, women and children. Old style kohl powder is still used by some.

My question is, if anyone has any idea of the age. I can't find anything similar, but I think it is at least 18th century. Am I kidding myself?

It is Indian, the seller is in Jodhpur, Rajasthan. It is made of lost wax cast brass with a copper base, and an old copper repair on one side.
The body of the bottle is formed slightly irregularly, and there are some partial fingerprints that were left in the wax. This is as clean as it gets, btw. It looks like the kohl spill of generations has been ingrained in the metal.

The stopper is in the shape of a woman's head. On her head she is wearing a 'rakhdi' jewel.
The stopper has a handmade screw thread. The stopper has clearly seen a lot of use, the little head is nicely worn. Most of the wear is exactly on the parts where I put my fingers to open it, so it is as natural as it looks.

It is ca 7.5 cm or 2 61/64" high. First photo has a paperclip for size.

Thank you for looking.




Below is the side with the old copper repair:





Indian dancer with kohl around her eyes and on her eyebrows:

 

GREAT IMAGES, @Any Jewelry!!!!! OK if I enlarge her to see her eyes better???? And your little 'bottle' is amazing!!!!

 

Thanks, Aqui, and of course you can. I can't find the photo anymore, otherwise I'd post that. As compensation, the most amazing Indian kohl eyes, a little girl in Varanasi, well protected against evil and eye sickness:


And this kohl-wearing girl has my colour eyes:

 

BOTH GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

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AND, you never got an age to your precious little bottle, @Any Jewelry, did you??? Wish I could help on that.....maybe they'll check in later?? Hopefully!!!!

 

No I didn't. I will keep checking.
Maybe @springfld.arsenal has an idea? It is small, but it is metal.

 

MY thoughts.....OLDER, BWDIK!!!!!!

 

Thanks Aqui.

 

I really don't have a clue but what seems a little suspicious is the thread is the same color as the outside. I would expect the outside to be lighter. I collect Indian antiques and I've never bought 1 from India, in fact I've only seen one real antique (that I recognize) in years on ebay from India, all the rest are fakes. Sorry to be a pooper

 

so mysterious

 

Such a little beauty!!!
Old one I think, the wear could be faked, but a repair made to fool isn’t consistent with the value (unless you paid a lot for it)
Those eyes are magnificent! Mine are hazelnut too, just a little darker

 

No problem raver, I want people's opinions to get closer to the identity of the little lady. Every insight helps to evaluate it, so thank you for yours. It also helps me to assess the whys and wherefores, and get a clearer picture in my head.

The market for kohl bottles is smaller than niche. Most people seem to buy kohl bottles as a curio item to add to a perfume bottle collection. That means they don't pay much, because they'd rather save their cash for a silver perfume bottle.
The real money is in ancient Egyptian and ancient Syrian/Phoenician bottles, which are bought by collectors of Egyptian, Syrian and Phoenician artifacts in general. Those are faked because people pay for ancient Egyptian etc.
As an illustration of the niche interest, the very first book on kohl bottles was only published last year. It is excellent, but the Egyptologist writer left the Indian sub-continent out.

From a practical viewpoint, if I were an Indian faker, I would rather copy those small silver amulets with deities. Much easier to make, and much higher prices.

With bronzes etc in general, I look for things like the wear on the footrim. The footrim of this bottle is nicely rounded from what looks to me like genuine wear. The Indian fakes that I have seen, had file marks on the base, and the edges of the base were much sharper than on this bottle.
Having said that, I am not an expert. In the past I relied on my metallurgist-archaeologist father, but unfortunately he is no longer with us. I picked up pointers from him, but that is nothing like the thorough knowledge and experience he had.

 

Thanks kyra.

I agree, too much trouble. I am Dutch, so cheap. I paid 26 euros for the little lady. I have paid as much for a nice early-mid 20th century one, although I generally pay much less.

I knew we were sisters. Mine are a tad more green than brownish, like green olives with patches of goldish rust.

 

@Any Jewelry, I went looking around, using your description of your little bottle, and there really WASN'T ANYTHING that I saw that I thought could compare anywhere close to what you have....yours is so sweet and simple, truly lovely!!!! It would be nice if @springfld.arsenal could/would check in....he just might have something positive to add!! Otherwise, how about checking with a museum?? AND, ONLY if you want, I've already run your images through my TOPAZ filter which enlarges (not too much) and clarifies (a bit)....won't post them unless you want me to!! I hope you can find more info on it!!!!!

 

I know! I couldn't find anything either.
I haven't had much luck with asking museums about kohl bottles so far. They are a pretty neglected subject, and some museums don't even reply. I asked several museums about the one in this thread:
https://www.antiquers.com/threads/any-idea-of-the-age-of-my-bronze-kohl-bottle.18780/
Only a Dutch museum replied, but they said they couldn't date kohl bottles that were older than 19th century. They also said there were no publications on antique kohl bottles. Which was true at the time, only last year the book I mentioned above was published. That book doesn't deal with India.

I just noticed spring replied there, but he had no idea.

Oh, thank you, that would be wonderful Aqui, you're a gem.
I can see if I can find a museum in India that replies to queries from the public.

 

Ah, something my Beautiful Older woman crush would have used , the Beautiful Laxmi Chhaya, may she rest in peace...such a pretty lady !

 

another picture ...oh wait , that's my Beautiful wife .... such a sweetheart ... how am I so lucky ?

 

Lovely, Fireman, both of them.

 

Thank You ! In regards to my "older woman" movie crush, always nice to find out they were a good person.... In a recent book, "Edwina", one of the background dancers said "Laxmi Chhaya was a sweet person and was always nice to us "...always nice to hear someone was a nice person... after she left films in 1986 she taught indigent children Indian dance...she passed from Cancer in 2004...not too much really known about her whole life, but she was in a LOT of Bollywood movies ! The tiny screen capture is Laxmi Chayya, age 9 , first time on film . The little girl with her two brothers is my sweet wife !