Featured Interesting Empire mahogany table

Discussion in 'Furniture' started by Northern Lights Lodge, Feb 6, 2020.

  1. Northern Lights Lodge

    Northern Lights Lodge Well-Known Member

    empire table 2.JPG

    I have a house full of antique Empire pieces... I love the stuff!

    I have this lovely interesting Empire drop leaf table. It weighs a ton. The top and leaves are solid mahogany - not veneer. The legs are a very unusual shape, do have veneer and appear not to detach (see photo #6). Each leg has a small brass finial cup (with a hole in it) probably to reinforce casters (which were missing when I purchased the piece). There are no markings on the underside. It has four arms that swing out or in to facilitate holding up the leaves (see photo #5).

    It is in surprisingly nice shape. It has a few small pieces of veneer missing on the legs and a couple chips off the turned part of the legs. There are a few marks on the top. Is it possible that the finish is "original". It doesn't seem to be a poly finish... could it be wax?

    I was going to use it for a dining room table... but the legs seem to be in the wrong place! The legs are only 15" apart on the sides - not wide enough to allow chairs to be placed under the table. Open, it is 55" long by 39" wide.

    I love the piece. I am curious about the date. It doesn't seem to fit the "norm" of Empire... typical "elephant trunk" features. I've done some extensive research and there seem to be VERY FEW Empire pieces with the angular legs. Any pieces I do locate seem to be 1800-1830 era.

    Any light on the subject would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!
    Leslie
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
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  2. gregsglass

    gregsglass Well-Known Member

    Hi,
    I love that top so much. I just want to dive into it. There is NOTHING like mahogany.
    greg
     
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  3. Northern Lights Lodge

    Northern Lights Lodge Well-Known Member

    Thank you! I love it too! I think it is gorgeous!
     
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  4. Ghopper1924

    Ghopper1924 Well-Known Member

    Jeez Louise that's some beautiful grain!
     
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  5. Northern Lights Lodge

    Northern Lights Lodge Well-Known Member

  6. Drew

    Drew Well-Known Member

    That solid mahogany top is quite beautiful - a time when prime large cuts of this wood could be found. Empire has had it's critics through the years & prices have often been below the designs which preceded it, or came after, but Empire has an important chapter in furniture history - I've always been partial to it.... nice table.
     
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  7. Northern Lights Lodge

    Northern Lights Lodge Well-Known Member

    Thanks Drew! That top is pretty awesome!

    My Grandmother had lots of Turn of the Century oak Empire - which I never cared for; apparently neither did anyone else in the family, as eventually it was all sold.

    I always loved Eastlake - but, I married a big guy and dainty Eastlake wasn't going to work for him.

    One day my eyes were opened to mahogany and walnut Empire - which, I think for the most part, predates oak... and I fell in LOVE! I've spent the last 20 years "rescuing", collecting and replacing most all the furniture in the house with dark wood Empire.

    With rare exception; I've purchased all my Empire at ridiculously low prices...as apparently, as you said prices are below the designs that preceeded it and came after.

    I'm definitely an advocate for early Empire; although I know it isn't popular. Maybe that's why I need to be a collector of it? :)

    Leslie
     
  8. giotto

    giotto Active Member

     
  9. giotto

    giotto Active Member

    Hi Leslie

    I am not sure where you have got the term "Empire" from, for this piece ?

    As far as I know this mahogany drop side table looks to be( is )English William 1V 1830-1837, The flat chamfers or flat sections on the legs are typical for this period.
    Also the quality of the mahogany is usually dense and heavy (cuban ).

    Empire mainly refers to French period 1800-1820.
    Regards Giotto.
     
  10. verybrad

    verybrad Well-Known Member

    I am assuming this is in America where just about anything that exhibits an ogee molding gets dubbed "Empire". I think this is a bit later than the 1830s dates being suggested. Those legs suggest renaissance revival so maybe a transitional piece circa 1850.
     
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  11. Ghopper1924

    Ghopper1924 Well-Known Member

    I dunno, I don't see much Renaissance-cy about those legs. Personally I'd stick with the earlier date.
     
  12. James Conrad

    James Conrad Well-Known Member

    Well, if it's really American Empire, it's HIGHLY collectible and expensive, just like it was when built.

    1790-1820 is correct, American Empire is very rare and very expensive, it was when built and remains so today.

    Ain't THAT the truth! I'd guess that over 90% of so called "empire" really isn't empire.
    Can't really tell, photos are poor quality and very dark, the top though is spectacular.
     
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  13. Northern Lights Lodge

    Northern Lights Lodge Well-Known Member

    Very interesting everyone! I guess i just "assumed" that it was American Empire because it seemed "early 1800's to me and mahogany. But, the fact that I couldn't find much with those flat sections on the legs that "looked" more typically Empire; does speak to the fact that it may not be.

    It sounds like everyone is in agreement that what ever it is... it dates to somewhere between 1790 to 1850. I guess I'll keep searching for more info. I appreciate everyone's comments! Keep em coming!

    Leslie
     
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  14. Northern Lights Lodge

    Northern Lights Lodge Well-Known Member

    James... do you have a lead where I might look into early American Empire?

    I will try and post more photos as soon as I'm able... can't do it just now... it will probably be a week or so...house full of company on it's way for the weekend.

    Leslie
     
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  15. Northern Lights Lodge

    Northern Lights Lodge Well-Known Member

    Thanks Giotto... I am such a fan of American Empire...I just "assumed" that it was because of the mahogany. But the fact that I wasn't able to find many legs or pedestals with flat sections that were American Empire...that could explain it. I will see what I can find about English 1830-1837 William IV furniture! Thanks for the lead!
    Leslie
     
  16. giotto

    giotto Active Member

    Hi Leslie

    It seems I may have learned something on this post,
    I had never heard the term American Empire.
    Looking on the net it seems this style of furniture seems to have been taken from styles in other countries eg France, England,Germany and ended up a bit of a mixture of design styes .

    I have an interesting Mahogany wine table that I always felt may be American,
    I will post images soon ,you may be able to give me your opinion.
    Can the experts on American Empire tell me how you tell the difference between an English piece and an American one?
    Regards Giotto.
     
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  17. James Conrad

    James Conrad Well-Known Member

    I used to have this handy dandy article posted by Hollie Davis (columnist at MAD) that described the differences between these Neoclassical 3 related but different furniture styles. (adam, empire, late classical)
    Unfortunately, that post went nite nite as the forum it was on is no longer hosted on the net. Perhaps I'll email & see if she has a copy.
    Empire was the 2nd of these 3 styles, it was handmade and featured carving, gilded brass mounts and stamped brass inlays.
    Very few cabinetmakers in america at this time had the resources (carvers,gilders, stone cutters, etc) to pull off this style and those that did were located in the big cities of the time, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore.
    In New York, cabinetmakers Duncan Phyfe & Charles-Honore Lannuier (paris trained) were direct competitors who exemplified this Empire style.
    This furniture was very expensive to build & very few americans could afford it.
    Late Classical was the 3rd and last of these Neoclassical styles and is often confused with "empire", mostly for marketing reasons. It was largely machine made, had the same form as empire but none of the decoration (carving, gilding, inlay, stone).

    At the MET, Charles-Honoré Lannuier 1815-1819 Pier Table

    https://www.metmuseum.org/art/colle...mpire+table&offset=0&rpp=20&pos=4


    DP-15306-001 R.jpg
     
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  18. James Conrad

    James Conrad Well-Known Member

    From what little i can see (mostly the top), your table style is not Empire, neither american or french versions (where the style originated).
    I would guess, mid 19th century, machine built, which right away excludes Empire.
    Where are you, where did you get the table?
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
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  19. James Conrad

    James Conrad Well-Known Member

    Here are a couple examples of american empire attributed to Phyfe, i say attributed because phyfe was a very arrogant man who thought his woodworking skills so flawless, no one would dare imitate his work (WRONG!!!) so he refused to mark or label his furniture.:facepalm:

    5a1869d4ca45b243e5e3928b17d9a857.jpg

    At the MET, Card table C 1815
    https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/18371

    restricted.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
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  20. giotto

    giotto Active Member

    The pieces posted by James ,are at the top end of Empire ,American or French.

    I would still like some one to tell me the difference between an English William 1V piece and an American piece ,when they are more basic pieces ,like the original drop side table at the start of this post.
    what part of this table is supposed to be Empire style ?

    Regards Giotto.
     
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