Featured I've got Sarreguemines under my skin, I've got you deep in the heart of me...

Discussion in 'Pottery, Glass, and Porcelain' started by Brian Warshaw, Jun 10, 2021 at 10:58 AM.

  1. Brian Warshaw

    Brian Warshaw Well-Known Member

    This has been a great week for me, and I like to think for Sarreguemines too. On Monday I found the enormous majolica Fish Platter and plates; and today I had to reluctantly make an unecological 90km round-trip to collect this bowl:

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    I understand that "Carmen" is the name used by Sarreguemines and U & C for their Ironstone (Terre de Fer) faience between 1875 and 1900 after which porcelaine became more prominent.

    The bowl dimensions are:
    · Bowl rim: 20 cm diameter
    · Bowl max: 21 cm diameter
    · Height: 12,5 cm height
    · Over handles: 25 cm
    · Foot: 11.5 cm diameter

    Weight: 877 grams

    I have search but have been unable to find comparable any pieces the Internet that will give me an indication of selling price. Prices are pretty high for straight forward blue on white pieces.

    The condition is pristine, don't be fooled by the faux crazing and brown blotches, which are part of the design.

    Help where you can, please. I rank it as one of the two nicest pieces I have laid my hands on.
  2. janetpjohn

    janetpjohn Well-Known Member

    I don't see anything online except white in Carmen. Who in the world told you the brown blotches are part of the design? Your piece looks like the bottom of a tureen.
  3. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly The worst prison is a closed heart

    It does rather look like a tureen without a lid. And as for the condition, in addition to the crazing with discoloration, there also appear to be quite a few hairline cracks. If you want to improve the look you might try a long soak in strong peroxide followed by a long soak in fresh water.


  4. Brian Warshaw

    Brian Warshaw Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you that it might be be the bottom of a tureen; it might well be. I may be wrong, but surely stains would be on top of the glaze, not under it. Are your suggesting that the the brown wash background is a stain? In my search I came across the odd item that had a red flower in it, but I agree, 99% of them were blue on white.

    Unless it is counterfeit, and I don't think it is, the Marque seems genuine enough, somebody at Sarreguemines/U & C, must have broken the mould and tried something different. If this is the only one of it's type, he was obviously fired.

    Incidentally, I hold up my hand, the 'Brown blotches are part of the design' was mine, and mine alone. The whole design is presented to create an aged appearance though faux distressing, including cracks and stains.

    But you've certain raised an interesting query, so I will see what Sarreguemines-Passions come up with. Thank you, and let you know in due course what they say.
    DizzyDaff and Bronwen like this.
  5. Brian Warshaw

    Brian Warshaw Well-Known Member

    Beyond all doubt it is the bottom half of a tureen. I find it difficult to accept that the crazing, cracks and stains are anything other that designer induced distressing, How could a crack below the glaze take on a greater intensity of colour than that of the background paint, especially when the clay is white? How could a stain be smeared under the glaze?

    I don't think one can make a judgement from the photographs alone. I questioned the seller a couple of times about both things. I think you'd change your assessment of it if you handled it.

    The only thing a strong dose of peroxide would take off is my skin. It wouldn't touch the stains or cracks.

    I wouldn't want to swop this bowl for the straight blue on white of the standard Carmen design. This was probably a trial design that fell foul to the 19th Century time and motion man, and the chief financial clerk.

    Let's see what Sarreguemines-Passions say.
    Bronwen likes this.
  6. Brian Warshaw

    Brian Warshaw Well-Known Member

    @janetpjohn. They do exist, just as I was beginning to doubt myself.
    DizzyDaff likes this.
  7. janetpjohn

    janetpjohn Well-Known Member

    Yours is blue and white; that one is brown and ivory. The peroxide soak will get into the crazing and help clean it, but probably not completely. This is already old. No one tried to make it look old by damaging it. The stains spread under the glaze through the crazing.
  8. Brian Warshaw

    Brian Warshaw Well-Known Member

    It seems were weren't so stiff-necked as to just stick to white and blue. Red, and brown too.

    Soupière-Bambou-Service-Carmen-Papillon-Abeille-Faïence-de RED.jpg
  9. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly The worst prison is a closed heart

  10. Tanya

    Tanya Well-Known Member

    Any Jewelry likes this.
  11. Brian Warshaw

    Brian Warshaw Well-Known Member

    Mine is blue and brown; and we always knew blue and white was common, now we have also learned red and white was used, and also ivory and brown. I think we have been very successful, but there is also further to go.

    I'm not suggesting anybody deliberately damaged it. I don't believe it is damaged, I'm suggesting the artist decorated it that way. People in 1990 liked and bought deliberately distressed furniture; one can't say an open-minded artisan decorator could not have tried, artistically, the same concept in 1890.

    I don't understand how peroxide could get into cracks that lurk beneath an undamaged glazing. How could the strains get under the glazing except by having been put there before the glazing was applied?

    Neither of us knows what's what. We are postulating suppositions. I shall seek the views of aafs as well as Sarreguemines-Passions.
  12. Brian Warshaw

    Brian Warshaw Well-Known Member

    I'm not a denier. I accept peroxide and false teeth cleaner will get rid of stains. I just don't accept that that my dish is stained; it's an of design.

    We are arguing different cases, so we cannot come to the same conclusion.
  13. wiscbirddog

    wiscbirddog Well-Known Member

    I'm on the side of "it is staining", but I hope you can prove us wrong. :)
    judy and Brian Warshaw like this.
  14. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly The worst prison is a closed heart

    Brian I'm delighted that you love your pot as it is. Having a rather massive study collection of old pots, I like them as they are even if only survivors of how they were. Yours looks to have had a long useful life.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021 at 8:43 AM
  15. Brian Warshaw

    Brian Warshaw Well-Known Member

    I hope so too, or I'll start suspecting the authenticity of some Picasso's.
    judy likes this.
  16. DizzyDaff

    DizzyDaff Member

  17. Rufus@frockstarvintage

    Rufus@frockstarvintage Well-Known Member

    You could always try the cleaning method to prove your case -- if the crazing etc is deliberate distressing, wouldn't it remain unaffected? Remember your skin & wear gloves =)
    judy likes this.
  18. patd8643

    patd8643 Well-Known Member

    FWIW, I have used Oxyclean for years to clean up china. Make a solution somewhat stronger than recommended, insert the piece and leave for 2 days. You may need to repeat several times. Dry then submerse in clear water and leave for 2 days. Pull and let it dry. Over time, the discoloration will reappear and you may need to repeat several years later. Good luck if you try it.

    BTW, store peroxide does not work. It has to be the stronger hair peroxide like bought at at hair supply store.
    judy and Any Jewelry like this.
  19. Brian Warshaw

    Brian Warshaw Well-Known Member

    Thanks. It is not so much the blue design that is controversial, it is the base brown colour of the item, that has never been seen by views before this one.

    For me how do those brown bloodies (stains) get under the unbroken glazing except by the deliberate action of decorator. Look at the one on the bee. It is typical of brush full of paint flicked and hitting a surface. Pale in the middle and getting more intense as it reaches the perimeter. A deliberate act Q.E.D.

    Humour me. Look at it again in that light.
  20. Brian Warshaw

    Brian Warshaw Well-Known Member

    I will try cleaning it after I have received comments from the two Sarreguemine lovers groups if they do not support my theory of a Piccasso in a china paint shop.
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