Lace Identification..Handmade or Machine?

I came across a huge lot of vintage / antique lace and trims. I have questions on some of it. I have been researching as much as possible.. then came across the link to here..Forgot about checking in here. Any help would be greatly appreciated..
Identifying what type Im getting better at, and some I can tell whether it is handmade or not, and some I cannot. The two pics are of a collar. I just dont know what it is and whether it is handmade or not. I a leaning to that it is..the last photo is of a piece that I am thinking is chemical lace.. looks like Gros point??

 

So I had accidentally saved a thumbprint and have corrected that, so the Gros point? one is at the top now.

 

Pretty collar!
I agree that it may be chemical lace, sometimes called Schiffli lace.
But we'd better ask @Northern Lights Lodge to be sure!

 

She really knows her stuff! We are fortunate to have her as a source.

 

thank you! I hope she will be able to assist. There is so much information out there but all a bit confusing sometimes.

 

@Jana Pace @bluumz @Darkwing Manor

Thank you all! I'm blushing!

Sorry, neither are handmade. But yes, both are Schliffli lace / chemical lace. The top one is a machine example of what they might call "Gros Point" due to the somewhat "padded" nature of the petals.... but titles given to machine made pieces aren't always very accurate. The manufacturer would take elements from hand made examples to duplicate in machine made lace and even though it may contain elements from numerous styles of lace - it got a blanket term - depending on the whim of the manufacturer. At least as far as I can tell!

Both appear to be just lovely examples and quite pristine... unwashed! They don't always look so "crisp" after laundering. And I may add, that you took excellent photos! Makes ID so much easier!

I would hesitate to give either a name other than "Schliffli" or Chemical. As those two are truly the most accurate terms. The term "floral" also applies.

You didn't state if you are looking to sell... but, in my opinion... even though they are machine... they are in such nice condition; that they would probably be quite sellable...

I'm here; tag me... and will be glad to answer any other questions...
Cheerio,
Leslie

 

@Northern Lights Lodge
Thank you so much! Quite frankly, it is all so confusing! I have done so much research trying to figure out this lace I came across. It is a very complicated subject, but extremely interesting! I have already learned quite a bit. I was fairly certain the "gros point" one was What you said it was, and had already listed it as Schiffli / chemical lace. I just don't like to list things and call them something without knowing for certain. There are 3 pieces of it and it really is very nice, but they are darkened..which if I hear you correctly.. is ok. The collar is beautiful and I just could not tell if it was handmade or not, though again from research, it seemed that the grounds?? I think that is what they are called.. are more loosely made than what a handmade would be. Thank you for confirming that for me. I am going to sell this as well, but just not sure where to start it at.
I do have a few other pieces that I am just not certain what they are, one a doily.. I will post a couple of pics if you don't mind. I think it is tape lace but that is as far as I can go! lol

I included a pic of the back. It is darker than the pics show. thank you again!!!

Jana

 

Hi Jana!
You are welcome! I love to share! Knowledge about anything is good... and it is even better to share what one knows!

On a general note: I don't blame you for being confused! Lacemaking is a huge subject; both from a historical point of view and a technique / style point of view. I'm a long time lacemaker and so am very familiar with lots of techniques and styles! Over the years I've had classes to learn many techniques and have also taught many techniques... so unlike some people who just "collect"... I have some hands on knowledge as to how it was actually worked.

This is a very pleasing example of Bruges Flowerwork! Yes, the last photo is the back side. I love this piece because it has so much to tell us!

The central flower, ring of flowers and serpentine scrolls some leaves were probably worked first. The brides (connecting bars) and tallies (the square bits with legs) and some of the leaves were added after that.

The last photo is very telling due to all the "crossover braids" and mishmash of "stuff" going on. On a good note: for SURE that identifies it has hand made! On the not so good note: it also tells me that it was probably worked circa 1970 when any working Bruge lacemakers were just scrambling to make pieces to sell to unknowing tourists who were awed just watching the lacemakers fingers fly! The result was a lot of "cut corners" like the travelling braids which were used to move pairs of threads; instead of cutting them off and sewing them in again in the proper location. That shows in the lack of neatness on the back; not so noticeable from the front.

That said: it is a pretty example and in my opinion; looks like it lays nicely and is "crisp". It sounds like you plan to sell it; therefore, unless you want to go through the bother of repinning - every edge pin hole + a few more; I wouldn't launder it. Let the buyer, if they wish!

I'm here and willing if you need more id / info!
Cheerio Leslie

 

Thank you!! Wow, very interesting! Especially about the back side. As far as washing, I think it had been laundered before I got it... I ironed it a bit. I would never have thought this was a newer piece until you described why with the "back" information. Of course, hey, the 70's was a while ago. lol. I have found myself coming up for air after researching lace info and seeing that a bit of time has gone by.. it is absorbing, and I like learning new things. As I go through the rest I may have a question or two on a couple of others like a piece of lace that has grapes and grape leaves that look like they have been incorporated and appliquéd onto some net type lace, with the backing having been cut away.. very interesting to look at, and Ive not been able to find anything like it.. will post a pic in a couple of days. I really appreciate your time and education!!

sincerely,
Jana

 

Fascinating, I would definitely have been among the "unknowing tourists", LOL!

 

Hi Bluumz,

I've heard reports from other lacemakers who had been in Belgium during that time frame - that to try and save the dying industry; lacemakers were out in the streets in force and although some were actually working "serious", very spendy pieces... other lacemakers were making pieces that could be worked very quickly as tourist souvenirs. Apparently, when you went in to the lace shops to purchase; the touristy pieces were the ones out to purchase and the "better" pieces were hidden from view - and you would have to ask for "better pieces".

Watching a street full of lacemakers; I'm SURE would be fun...and watching, certainly sent many a tourist to find a lace shop! Not that buying a tourist piece is "bad"... but it is the difference between something that is well worked; and not.

Also, it bears repeating... that if you stand IN FRONT of a bobbin lacemaker as she is working - you are watching her upside down and backwards and it REALLY does look more complicated than it is! It is complicated enough (to the novice) without that confusion. IF possible; ask a lacemaker if you may watch from her vantage point by standing BEHIND her/him! It will make all the difference!

Cheerio,
Leslie

 

@Jana Pace - Glad to be your info person! Well, if it had been laundered - they did a good job...as did the "presser"! As you uncover more - be sure to share...
Cheerio, Leslie

 

Saw this..a post card from 1970's...

 

Bingo!

 

Here are a couple of other laces. Both are about 6" wide. I am assuming machine and "alencon STYLE" but what puzzles me is the "outline" on the one with the heart style petal flowers. Again old, from same lot that I purchased.

 

Hi again!
Very pretty pieces that look like they are in good, unused shape! And so wide - is lovely! You are right - they are machine made! The first piece does seem to have an unusual "top" woven thread used for shading. I don't believe I've encountered that before! I would hesitate to classify either of them as "Alencon". True Alencon is quite fine with a back ground net. I think I would safely call them "Floral" as they don't seem to have enough style elements to classify them any particular kind of lace.
Have a good evening.
Leslie

 

@Northern Lights Lodge
I feel a little overwhelmed with these trims. Lol. A couple that I don’t know how to identify. Most I am putting in lots.. just need to get through the boxes. I’m almost there. Not sure what to call the one with the grapes saw something similar as corded, but it was the only one like that. Is the one with the stars made with zig zag ? or with tape? At a loss cant find something like it either. I know the embroidered one is machine made and then the one with the wheat ears..is that a Cluny type lace?? Thank you again so so much!!!

Jana

 

No worries... let's review: Photo #1 a delightful lot!
#2 - Machine embroidered; cannot call it Schliffli as all the fabric would have been "eaten out" by the chemical process. So, those little open squares may have been stamped out by machine just prior to stitching or just after...hence their somewhat frayed look.

#3 - Machine made bobbin. Yes, I think you could correctly call it Cluny - it has the proper elements to be called such - the somewhat geometric design, the "wheat leaves", the spiders...

#4 - (top one with grapes) - a bit of an oddity. I like the design... it is machine embroidered; but unusual that the fabric is cotton. It is usually a little lighter weight fabric. The base part of it (the square grids) look like Schiffli produced; and then that cotton fabric/embroidery sewn on top. Hard to tell. All I can say for certain; is that it is a little unusual!

(bottom ones) - I like to call that fairly narrow, dainty style - "petticoat lace" as it was often used in ladies undergarments and baby clothing. Sometimes chemise covers and Gibson Girl blouses. It IS machine made; but it is safe to call it "machine made Valenciennes" as the design elements are very close to hand produced Val lace. This type yardage usually sells very well!

moving on to #5 - For lack of another name I'd have to call it "Rick Rack Lace" - popular from the 30-50's...and designs were often featured in Workbasket magazine. The top rick rack one appears to have crocheted "fillings" to hold the rick rack together; whereas the bottom one appears to have needle created fillings - more like you might find in Battenberg laces.

Overall fun pieces... they look usable and sellable!
Good luck!
Leslie