Featured Marie-Madeleine à la Sainte Baume

Discussion in 'Art' started by Sam Hills, Jan 2, 2021.

  1. Sam Hills

    Sam Hills Member

    Hi all,

    May I ask for your comments on this small painting on a brass plate?

    Name: Marie-Madeleine à la Sainte Baume
    Presumed Painter: Rogier van der Weyden, Rogier de le Pasture (no visible signature)
    Period: 1399-1464
    Material: Brass Plate
    Dimensions: H16cm x W13.2cm / H7.4 in x 5.1 in
    Collection: Jean Mahieu de Medina, (aka Belgian Senator Jean Mahieu).

    The back reads in French:

    Marie-Madeleine à la Sainte Baume
    By: de la pasture aka Rogier van der Weyden
    (on brass)
    Frame: 18th century wood from islands(?)
    Collection: Jean Mahieu de Medina

    I have inherited this painting from my great grandfather, who lived in Brussels.

    Does anyone know anything about why this was painted on a brass plate? Despite the size, I would not expect this to be a draft, in light of the the material used... Could this have hung in a church or chapel somewhere?

    Many thanks in advance, I’m curious to hear what you have to say!

    Sam


     
  2. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    Are you sure it is brass & not bronze? Not that that helps clarify anything. Looks in surprisingly good condition for something 550 years old that is not in any sort of protective frame.
     
    James Conrad and Sam Hills like this.
  3. moreotherstuff

    moreotherstuff Izorizent

    It could easily be a copper plate.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_on_copper

    It looks to me to be later than Van Der Weyden, not particularly in his style, but if you really want to know, you'll have to have experts evaluate hands-on.
     
  4. Debora

    Debora Well-Known Member

    I'm finding a definition of bois des iles on the internet as "rare" or "precious" wood. It may be an expensive imported wood such as ebony. Of course, material is moot since your piece is missing its frame.

    Debora
     
    Sam Hills likes this.
  5. Debora

    Debora Well-Known Member

    I think the attribution to Leyden is incorrect.

    Debora

    220px-Rogier_van_der_Weyden_-_Portrait_of_a_Lady_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
     
    James Conrad, Sam Hills and Bronwen like this.
  6. Sam Hills

    Sam Hills Member

    V
    Thank you for the link! Very interesting:

    « The Flemish masters and other artists including Jan Breughel the Elder, Claude, El Greco, Guido Reni, Guercino, Rembrandt, Carlo Saraceni, Ambrosius Bosschaert II, Copley Fielding and Vernet painted on copper. They favored copper for its smooth surface which allowed fine detail, and its durability »
     
    Bronwen likes this.
  7. moreotherstuff

    moreotherstuff Izorizent

    I once had a painting on copper evaluated at Antiques Roadshow as 16th-17thC with an estimated value of $600-$700 (20 years ago).

    All those artists are a hundred years and more after Van Der Weyden.
     
    James Conrad, Sam Hills and Bronwen like this.
  8. bluumz

    bluumz Quite Busy

    I see on the back mention of the name Van Der weide, but Rogier is not specified.
    What about the grandson Goswin/Goswyn van der Weyden?

    Screenshot (34).png
     
    James Conrad, Sam Hills and Bronwen like this.
  9. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    James Conrad, blooey and Sam Hills like this.
  10. moreotherstuff

    moreotherstuff Izorizent

    I think the lighting is all wrong for early Netherlandish work. My idle guess would be no earlier than 16th C and very likely later.
     
    James Conrad, Sam Hills and Bronwen like this.
  11. Sam Hills

    Sam Hills Member

    Here are a few examples
     

    Attached Files:

    Bronwen likes this.
  12. Fid

    Fid Well-Known Member

    will be hard to prove from when and by whom. the pilgrimage at St.Baume includes the Grotte which by itself reminds a bit of the underground church in Monte Sant Angelo.
    if lucky then it is a piece that was rescued from the Grotte of Saint-Baume or the surroundins during the Revolution and safed to Belgium.
    the pilgrimage reappeared mostly because of the story that Mary Magdalene sailed to Marseille from Palestine together with Lazarus and therefore became the Saint of the Provence. but (as always...) there is also the possibility that it was made much later when a veneration of all Marys set in after 1850s in the whole of France as part of a Catholic revival.
     
    Sam Hills and moreotherstuff like this.
  13. Sam Hills

    Sam Hills Member

    Fid, moreotherstuff, Bronwen, bluumz & Debora,

    Thank you so much for your feedback!

    I searched a little more and I stumbled across two paintings that are almost identical in setting, style, colours.. claimed to be 17th century.

    Please see the two attached paintings and links.

    I know nothing about paintings and valuations but I was surprised to see the price of 400-500 EUR (with frame!), given the age and historical value. The price seems quite low considering what it would have cost to make this back then; I assume it would have consisted of at least 15 hours of skilled labor and material... It sure didn't gain much value over the years.

    Makes you wonder wether this category of antique paintings (the low-middle end) is worth buying at all from an investment point of view. Considering also the time it will take to research and sell it, the shipping and broker fees, I may be at a loss already without having bought this piece!

    Nevertheless, the research is fun and you learn a lot along the way.

    What do you think?

    https://www.richardmdv.com/lot/2376...KDCH6r-KZeb7mvAo03Z_F_TPFcfawH4lTA1R9BHgAjJGY

    https://www.auction.fr/_fr/lot/ecol...unY8qv83P1d5PQlbD6GmcTAQmm05mLdPltNr-kkNmoox4
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Fid

    Fid Well-Known Member

    JMHO.
    the subject is widely known and you can't count hours or days that were spent THEN to today's situation; or prices . in those old days there were plenty of painters that did these rather small paintings as daily bread and butter job.
    those religious paintings for personal devotion and meditation were as widely spread as are the grinning fat Buddhas in today's Asia.
    the attribution of an unknown person on the back and in a handwriting that was in use at least to the 1910s and is easily readable even today for most French is not really helpful.
    last chance would be if you had a museum curator nearbye that knows enough about these to give you an idea for provenance and value.
    good luck !
     
    Sam Hills likes this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page