Minton pate-sur-pate - real or fake?

Discussion in 'Pottery, Glass, and Porcelain' started by Chest Rockwell, Aug 16, 2019 at 12:16 AM.

  1. Chest Rockwell

    Chest Rockwell New Member

    Hi all,

    I recently bought a pair of vases from a Boston antiques dealer. I bought them because I liked them and without any information about their maker or age. Only after I bought them did I begin researching them. The dealer made no representations about their origin and claimed to not know much about them.

    As best as I can determine they appear to be pate-sur-pate vases made by Mintons in the 1875-1810 time frame. However, two things make me question their authenticity.

    First, the carved figures, while nice, seem to be a bit cruder and have slightly less fine detail than many of the pictures of similar Mintons vases I have found on the internet.

    Second, while there is a Mintons mark on the bottoms of the vases it does not seem to be the appropriate mark for the time period. From what I have read, the mark design on my vases was only used by Mintons in the early 19th century, whereas the Louis Salon pate-sur-pate vases were only made after 1875 or so. See,

    http://www.victoriana.com/tilepatterns/mintontiles.html

    http://www.oldandsold.com/pottery/greatbritain22.shtml

    Further, all of the other Mintons marks on pate-sur-pate vases I have seen posted on the internet have been of the crown/globe variety.

    I have attached some pictures. Would appreciate any insights or expertise. My working hypothesis is that they might be old knock-off's perhaps made contemporaneously in the 1875-1910 timeframe when this style was popular.

    Thanks.

    IMG_9657.JPG IMG_9650.JPG IMG_9648.JPG IMG_9653.JPG IMG_9652.JPG IMG_9662.JPG
     
    Mill Cove Treasures and antidiem like this.
  2. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    "a Boston antiques dealer..... without any information about their maker or age."

    Hey , isn't that a red flag from the get go ???
     
  3. Miscstuff

    Miscstuff Australia

    Amen.
    Judging by the lack of scratches and wear underneath as well as the gilding and also the quality I'll go out on an uneducated limb and say 2010-11 China.:bag:

    Oops .. forgot to say WELCOME CHEST :D:D:D
     
    Jivvy, judy, Any Jewelry and 4 others like this.
  4. i need help

    i need help Well-Known Member

    Hi Chest, Welcome to the Forum! :)
    I don’t know much on this subject, but I would agree the quality doesn’t seem to be the same. Others who know more will be along.
    That being said, I REALLY appreciate your being open to finding out the truth!
    Can’t tell you how many people join here, refusing to accept they may not have what they believed.
    Again, Welcome! ;)
     
  5. antidiem

    antidiem Well-Known Member

    Welcome @Chest Rockwell +I agree they don't look as nicely done as what I would expect to see, however I am no expert when it comes to identifying fakes.
     
    judy, Any Jewelry, komokwa and 2 others like this.
  6. popsycat

    popsycat Well-Known Member

    When a dealer claims not to know much about them, alarm bells should ring. Minton pate sur pate is fabulous. I have always said if I had plenty of money I would collect Minton pate sur pate. They are not the quality of Minton.
     
    antidiem, komokwa, judy and 2 others like this.
  7. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Welcome Chest.
    I agree with the above. On the upside, you liked them enough to have bought them without knowing what they were. So enjoy them.:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019 at 6:40 AM
  8. judy

    judy Well-Known Member

    Hi Chest!

    Welcome to Antiquers...........
     
    antidiem and i need help like this.
  9. moreotherstuff

    moreotherstuff Izorizent

    Looks to me more like a Mary Gregory type thing than pate-sur-pate.
     
    antidiem and i need help like this.
  10. antidiem

    antidiem Well-Known Member

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