OLD SWORD 1763 VO

Discussion in 'Militaria' started by BTZ64, Jan 23, 2020.

?

Is it original marks..??

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  1. BTZ64

    BTZ64 JB64000

    Here is an old sword with date on the blade 1763 and sign VO
    Size is 74 cm L including Handle (13cm) and blade is 3cm W.
    Still very sharp ,Fittings of handle missing...
    Could I get more infos
    jb
     

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    Any Jewelry likes this.
  2. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Very nice Jacques, but could you photograph it in better light?
    It has a VOC mark, VOC stands for 'Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie', the Dutch East India Company, 1602-1800.
    A word of warning, VOC items are faked.

    [​IMG]

    VOC logo and flag:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. BTZ64

    BTZ64 JB64000

    Big Thanks..Ok will try now.
     
  4. BTZ64

    BTZ64 JB64000

    Hope those photos ok ..??? 010.JPG 012.JPG 013.JPG 014.JPG 015.JPG
     
  5. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    A very close exam of the VOC logo using a sharper image should let an experienced eye tell whether new or old. Sword itself looks old to me but the handle looks more like something more from India than, say, Indonesia, a VOC-infested place. It is a bit odd that the logo is so sharp and other marks are much more worn/corroded. VOC was near their peak in 1763, no way they’d be buying old swords. I’ve never seen a VOC-marked sword before but that doesn’t mean much.
     
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  6. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    That's what I thought, but that doesn't rule out a possible VOC connection.
    In 1763 the VOC still had colonies in India, notably the Coromandel Coast, Surat in Gujarat, and parts of coastal Bengal. They also had a trading post in Agra, south of Delhi.

    The Dutch were not like the Brits. During many periods of VOC history, relationships with local girls were encouraged, and there were marriages with local aristocrats to ensure good trade benefits and loyalty.
    Quite a few VOC officals were part Indian and could have had Indian swords through their family, just like many VOC officials in Indonesia had keris through their local family connections. Even one of the governors of the South African Cape Colony, Simon van der Stel (of wine fame) had an Indian mother or grandmother.
    Neither have I, but that doesn’t mean much either.;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  7. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    The way experts often sort these things out is to study any stamping, engraving etc. under magnification to see whether the marks or the surrounding corrosion was there first. If “original” obviously the corrosion should overlay all markings the same way.
     
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  8. BTZ64

    BTZ64 JB64000

    Hi Devilish.....First of all ,Thanks a lot for your clear responses and details regarding my "Skinny VOC 1763 Sword"I have been reading and understanding your points which are absolutely genuine and founded....But I will say that you forgot one thing on the Dutch VOC Trade 17th/18th Cent History on their route to the East....In the end of 18th cent Brits and French were fighting through India " Trade and Military Strategy with Comptoirs" where England had very quick overall Monopole....But in the meantime The Dutch...Less aggressive in War..Were building a Route Connection in order to bring back to Europe (Nederland/Holland) A new Trading Business based on some unknown items product in Europe..As Chinese mode of pottery making ...(Call Delft after having Understood the way of making..)/Spices/Wooden Essences.Tea..Etc....The Rough 17th cent "Religious mode of obliging Christianism laws in those country"had been done already by the Portuguese trough out all of those countries.... But ....On your statement..You don't mention at all The Dutch Colonizing Period in Ceylon..(Today Sri lanka...)..It is Major..And Colombo..Galle..and other sea harbours were stategic trading Comptoirs protected by the north east bay regions for routing to Indonesia and far East .., China and Japan were doing their own manufacturing (D'avant garde secrets of Porcelaine and other mode of Pottery....)Which have been returned and copied only by the Dutch first in Europe...So Bottom line of my long message...Yes my skinny old rusty..VOC sword is "Authentic and d'epoque...I Will (if you want..I hope..?)forward and inform you why ...with very interesting facts..But would like and insist to be connected and communicating with You to learn more from you and to share as well with me plenty interesting anecdote and facts regarding this subjects.... That has been so important in the 17th century....That the Dutch were the first in South Asia as there were the first in US....
    Hope you understood my english ..Passion and interest. JB
     
  9. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    JB, thanks. I was totally ignorant of VOC in India.

    I learned something about them by researching many VOC cannons I once owned. There’s a nice book about VOC cannons, “The Visser Collection.” That’s vol.1 I think. Vol. 2 is other Dutch and VOC weapons, I think. I have vol. 1 but not 2.
     
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  10. Fid

    Fid Well-Known Member

    fairytale time again. they were the worst colonists EVER ! not one simple dime went into the infrastructure for the simple people. especially for Ceylon it was organized robbery; what buildings and infrastructure still exist - besides military strongholds like Galle and some posh villas for the Dutch - were installed by the English.
    militarywise the Dutch were depending on mercaneries from all over Europe; in Switzerland the authorities even gave out warnings that young men should not meet the VOC regiments because they not only paid less than other employers but cheated them at the end of their engagement of the rest of the payment - which was not the case in France, Kingdom of the two Sicilies etc..
     
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  11. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Fid, you may want to read up on VOC history, and compare it to that of the other European trading companies in Asia. For an easy read I can recommend "Being Dutch in the Indies" by Ulbe Bosma and Remco Raben, which focuses specifically on the interaction between Europeans and Asians (also in the post-VOC period).

    Although the VOC were far from perfect, they were not the worst colonists ever. For instance they didn't impose their religion on others (something which led to genocide by other Europeans). In fact administrators and social servants were given a Quran and lessons on Islam before they were sent to Java.
    The VOC generally left the local social and power structures as they were, although they did meddle in local politics to rally and support allies.
    As for infrastructure in Ceylon, they used the existing Ceylonese and Portuguese infrastructure, which was good quality, but added canals which are still used by the locals today. They didn't colonize the entire island, like the Brits did, so further works weren't necessary, that was up to the Ceylonese kings.
    Of course the VOC did much more about infrastructure in Indonesia, simply because they were there for a longer period of time, and more was needed.
    In Ceylon they also improved the social status of the former Portuguese slaves, whose descendants are still called 'Burghers', the Dutch word for (equal) citizens, to this day. Some Burghers married into prominent Dutch families.

    I think what Jacques meant was that, unlike some other Europeans, the VOC was never intended as a colonial power. It was set up as a trading company, just like for instance the Swedish East India Company. They didn't want to occupy countries, they wanted to trade.
    And yes, trading companies are opportunist by their very nature, working for their investors in the main cities in faraway Europe. They had trading posts all over South and Southeastern Asia, often under the auspices of local rulers. (Deshima in Japan and Ayudhya in Thailand, for instance.)
    Things slowly moved towards a form of colonialism when the VOC wanted to enforce a monopoly on the spice trade. That is when the aggression started, mostly against European competitors, but also against Asian ones, like my Madurese (Indonesian) ancestors.
    There was hardly any control from VOC headquarters in Amsterdam over the day to day management of the settlements. Some governors were downright criminal, others had a conscience and good relationships with local people. But even these made some bad and even disasterous decisions.

    Fid, you may remember that one of my Madurese ancestors died in captivity on Robben Island after his country was taken from him, something which was even mentioned by Nelson Mandela before he left the island.
    I mention this bit of family history to show that I am not at all in favour of the dealings of the VOC. But I do try to keep an open mind, and take more things into account than just my own peronal feelings.

    I am sorry if certain Swiss mercenaries didn't get paid (why did they keep enlisting though?), but my family lost a whole lot more than a soldier's pay. They had no choice, whereas the Swiss did, in spite of their poverty. But like the other Europeans, the Swiss were in it for the money.
    As you said, the VOC would never have had the power they did without foreign mercenaries. Don't worry, I don't blame the Swiss, I know they were desperate at the time. As I said, I try to keep an open mind.;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  12. BTZ64

    BTZ64 JB64000

    Thank you very much for those precious information....They give more believe that a good part of my antiques collection has something to do with Dutch Colonial time in Asia.I just cleaned a little the inscription on the blade as I had been recommended previously to rub it with Hash powder....As well I have added some photos of a pair of Jars which have those Shell inscriptions....No VOC but the Shell is and was Dutch Emblem I think....So many other items which are now 100% related to Dutch Period and Ceylan....Once again Thanks for your precious infos..JB 001.JPG 002.JPG 003.JPG 004.JPG 005.JPG 006.JPG
     
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  13. BTZ64

    BTZ64 JB64000

    Thank you so much for those Professional and Acknowledging Information....As previously mentioned to Springfld.Arsenal.....A large part of my diverse antiques Collection have something to do with Dutch Colonial Period and Ceylan...Thanks to all of you.JB
     
  14. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    Thx for the improved photo. I’m now sure that an experienced person with a strong light and magnifier could tell you if the VOC stamp is old or new. I can’t do it with that photo, something like this needs to be done in person.
     
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  15. BTZ64

    BTZ64 JB64000

    Thanks to you..What about the pair of Jugs with Shell marks..??
     
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  16. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    It is best to post those in the pottery, etc forum. Someone there may know, and they don't usually look here.:)
     
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  17. BTZ64

    BTZ64 JB64000

    OK Merci will do it now....By the way what means those recorded Like ,Points and Trophy mentioned on my Avatar box..??
     
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  18. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Like is the amount of 'likes' members give you. You can 'like' someone's reply by clicking on the blue word 'like' just below the reply.
    Points and Trophy don't really work. Everyone gets a number of points after a couple of posts, and after 113 or something it stops.:confused:
     
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  19. BTZ64

    BTZ64 JB64000

    OK Merci..!!
     
  20. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    U will need to post pic of bottom of jug, and give the height. Having three Shell stamps on it bothers me but I can’t fully explain why. Multiple identical marks aren’t a good thing on some other objects I deal with, maybe.
     
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