Please decipher enigmatic monogram (?) on cannon

This small bronze cannon was once in a museum, displayed as a trophy of war. The museum closed ca. 1920 and most of the contents were spread around by gift, inter-museum transfer, or sold to scrap dealers. The exact path this one took, we don’t know but it turned up in an auction about 5 years ago. The item is a Spanish swivel gun weighing 31 lbs. The enigmatic engraved figure(s) are on the breech. This type of post-manufacture engraved mark is often used to indicate ownership. The cannon has “museum numbers” which are close to those of a larger bronze cannon from the same museum that was involved in a battle for the conquest of California on Oct. 8, 1846. The larger cannon is “The Old Woman’s Gun” and is very well-known. It is or was in the US Naval Academy Museum, I have photos. Anyway, please see if you can decipher the marking. It is pretty clear to me that the left side contains letters “C” and “P.”, But then what? https://flic.kr/p/2mi1Jpt

 

Guesses: vA. That hook in the middle could be a J.



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Kind of odd that the letters on the right have serifs while those on the left don't

 

Thanks, possibly so. I wonder if that possibly J might represent a conjunction. Maybe means “and?” Any such words in Spanish? I don’t know much Spanish beyond uno, dos, tres…

 

dA ?

 

Agree. Perhaps it changed ownership, first owner was VA and second CP, each engraved his own initials in his own style. I suggest, if this is true, that VA was first owner because his initials are well-centered, so CP had to carve his off-center. I’ll have to get lucky to find the names that fit those initials, unless I can find a case where CP killed VA and took his cannon.

 

Seems logical to me.

 

Any chance it can flip the other way? K (2?) CP or GD or something?

 

possible, less likely I guess. I’ll keep that one in mind when I’m looking thru names known to have participated in the Battle of Dominguez Ranch, near L.A., on Oct 8, 1846. Haven’t started that yet.

I’m trying to find any kind of catalog for the many objects known to have been displayed in the “Museum of Naval Relics and Weapons” (1865-1920’s.). Like this one, they all had “Trophy No. __” stamped deeply into the top. __ was a one or two digit number. Someone MUST have recorded those numbers with at least brief descriptions of the objects. So I’ve asked all the likely present historical offices in the Washington Navy Yard to try and find such a catalog or guidebook. Worldcat has nothing. Mr. Google just shrugs. In the past some of these searches have taken me years, but that’s ok.

 

I was thinking the "V" in my initial guess could be an "N" too, but the orientation would need to be flipped. I don't know if a person would inscribe their initials in an opposing fashion from the other person's. If this was the case, it could be "NV" or "VN"

 

The conjunction "and" is "y" in Spanish. Looked like JA to my eye too. My first thought was an abbreviation for José Antonio, a first common Spanish first name.

Debora

 

Thx Deb, I’ll insert that in the equation one way or the other!

 

Good luck with this. A real puzzle.

Debora

 

Sure IS...a puzzle, that is!! I've turned it every which/way, and nothing jumps out specifically!!!​

 

I sent the pix to Dominguez Rancho Adobe Museum in CA which will soon have a battle reenactment; they’ll ask visitors if they’ve seen similar initials. I should post a profile pic of this small cannon, you’ve only seen the breech face so far. It is about 23 inches long and weighs 31 pounds. https://www.flickr.com/photos/189102681@N07/shares/2CS158

 

How interesting. Do let us know if anything comes of it.

Debora

 

Have been working on this. I felt the 8-pointed star-like mark was important. Such a symbol is so common you’d really have to know what country to begin searching. I only had a couple of places to look where I knew that form of cannon was used, both former Spanish colonies or had contained Spanish colonies, namely the Philippines and North America. I started with the Philippines. I found web pages I thought might have bits of information I could eventually connect. Since this cannon had been in a Navy museum and was marked as a war trophy, I looked for 8-point stars, battles in which the Navy or Marine Corps had fought there, and notable enemy officials who might have had their initials on a cannon. Still working on it. A few of the sites that seem to have info I can use:

Near the bottom of this I saw insignia that may have been the inspiration for the mark on the cannon:
http://www.agmohio.com/LRenemyuniforms_Filipino_Insignia.htm

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proc...-and-marine-corps-philippine-archepelago-1898

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ne_Revolution_and_the_Philippine–American_War

 

Still working this, on and off. I get best results when I spread projects like this over time and let the brain work on it in the background when I’m off doing other things, then revisit the materials after a while. Here are some of the things found so far under the assumption that the cannon was one of many of this general type used by Filipino insurgents against US troops 1898-1904. Two different small Spanish? cannons are shown in three photos, just to show readers how they were often mounted, without implying that either is “ours.” The two lists are my selections from longer lists based on possible matches of one or more of those names to the two sets of initials carved into the breech of the cannon. One set is definitely “CP” or “PC” for example, that could match Filipino General Cipriano Pacheco. But more information is required before he could be credibly connected to this cannon. For example, if we found that he’d surrendered to a USMC unit, that’d help make a connection. https://www.flickr.com/photos/189102681@N07/shares/44aq50

 

This was posted on the Big Cannons site in regard to the star mark. I agree what he says is quite possible but I don’t see a “D.”
Selwyn Williams
“I have seen such 8 pointed star marks as a sigla, mark of ownership, on several Spanish American silver bars, either on its own or incorporated with an initial or on a stem. You have a D next to it.”

Sigla, one meaning anyway, in Spanish means “initials.”

 

@springfld.arsenal , have you looked through the yearly US Government reports on the Philippines that are posted free , I believe I found them before using google books or Archive.org . I was researching my "Find a Grave" page I caretake for Mascot William "Searchlights" Doran of the 10th Pennsylvania Volunteers before, after finding "Roscrans" on his burial card, and came up with an actual listing for the USS Roscrans transport ship bringing bodies home in 1901 which lead me to a San Francisco paper talking about him by name and the fact his body was brought home on the Rosecrans which lead me to actually finding him buried in San Francisco. So much information on actual battles and skirmishes in those reports.