Song ginger jars?

Hello,

I hope someone here can help me with these two ginger jars - they are meant to be a gift for my friend, but I have very little knowledge og stoneware and pottery.

Both are stated to be from the Song dynasty, the latter said to be found at an
excavation in San Pablo. The first is from a shipwreck?

They are priced at 150 euro and 130 euro, so I can only afford one of them.. Which is why I would like to hear if the prices are reasonable, and if there is any chance they aren't authentic? This is very much of out my own field - and the only person I know, who has knowledge of pottery, is my friend. And I don't want to spoil my gift for him :-(

Thanks a lot for the help beforehand.

Shipwreck




San Pablo




Best regards
Ann

 

Welcome, Ann. There is so much fraud in this sort of thing, if you cannot get a really expert opinion in time, you do better finding something else for your friend. Who is selling them? Auction house? They can be wrong too as they most often accept whatever consignor tells them about an item? Private individual? EBay or other on line sales site?

What are the seal & tag on the first one meant to mean? Language on tag looks like one from South Asia. If so, big warning sign.

 

Welcome. If I were you, I wouldn't fork out the money on something that you have no knowledge about and with iffy provenance. I understand the joy of giving something special to a friend, but I don't know what ship wreck this might be where the piece has no marine encrustations after than amount of time.

 

Exactly. Not that pottery doesn't sometimes survive in the ground or in the water in excellent condition. But the complete lack of signs of either history is worrisome. Also, shape is not at all like a ginger jar.

 

Thank you all for responding. It is a big help.

For the second pot, there is provenance - Michael Bloch, a Danish architect and Royal registrar. He recently passed away, and thus his collection is being sold off.

I had an uneasy feeling in my stomach with both, likely from my own lack of knowledge, so I am very happy to get some proper advice. And it is very true, Kiko - I really would have loved to give something unique, that can be cherished. Sometimes it just feels so shallow to give a gift "just because". But worse is showing up empty-handed. :-(

But pottery really is confusing!
My own "field" is within natural history and taxidermy, so that is a far cry from old Chinese pottery.. So it is good that help is near.

I have a plan B, a Danish "Jydepotte" that belonged to a conservator in Northern Jutland. I also think it is very charming. I find that both price and provenance is a lot more reasonable with this one, and I know a lot more about the history and functions of a "Jydepotte", compared to foreign pottery and stoneware. So hopefully this one will do, even if they aren't exactly "rare".



Thanks again for the help!

 

Plan B is much, much better.

 

Ann. I find pottery incredibly confusing too. I laud your effort to find something for your friend that they will prize and enjoy. Plan B, as @Bronwen, said is much better. Kiko

 

Welcome Ann.
Both vessels are antique storage vessels, not ginger jars. They are Southeast Asian, the first one is Thai, or possibly Annamese (Vietnam). Thai and Annamese styles are very closely related.
Although China is known for fake antique porcelain, I am not aware of any Southeast Asian stoneware (storage vessel) fakes. Because the stoneware market is very different from the porcelain market, their 'stories' are very different.
I do know the antique ones are notoriously hard to put a date on. So whether they date from ca 1000 or ca 1700 is difficult to ascertain.
Some types are still being made, simply because they are household items. The difference between new and antique is not very difficult to spot. If the site where they were found is known, that sometimes helps to date them, but storage vessels were often used for centuries because stoneware is very durable. Many were made, and quite a few survived.
The shipwreck story could have started because many Southeast Asian stoneware storage vessels were used on ships and therefore found in shipwrecks. Some people think 'shipwreck' when they see these vessels.

The tag and seal on the first one look like an official Thai export tag and seal for antiques and antiquities to me. Those are issued by either the Thai Office of Antiquities and Museums, or one of the National Museums.

I don't know which of the many San Pablos (San Pablo, Philippines?) the second one was excavated at, so I can't say anything about that. I am not familiar with that specific model, I would have to check my books and files to see if I can find something similar.

If you have an uneasy feeling, don't buy. Option B sounds like a good option.
Having said that, I have no reason to believe the Thai one is a fake, but I would rather see if I can find one for a lower price. Though I don't know the other one, it looks legit to me.