Temple Silver Container w/ extensive repousse decoration - help w/ function & hallmark

Discussion in 'Silver' started by gimbler-dave, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. gimbler-dave

    gimbler-dave Well-Known Member

    This is a recently arrived piece that we are researching. From an area temple, it has some religious function or use. It is a lidded container that measures 7-3/4 inches in height to the top of the finial with lid in place. About 3-1/2 inches in diameter at the body, the rim is 1-7/8 inches in diameter. Weight 250 grams.
    I have several questions I am trying to get answers for. One is the functional purpose of the piece. The second is help with the hallmark - I am not sure what country it is from nor how to read it (although I will start checking on that after finishing this posting). The third question is the identity of the man on the lid in terms of his function or job. I'm sure that's tied in with the overall identity of the piece. Any other comments or observations are appreciated - sometimes the group here will see things we totally miss, and its great to have more experienced eyes looking at the item.
    The repousse work goes all the way around and has a building, and a couple of animals, mixed in with the overall floral motif. There are 6 lobes on the side of the container. The tarnish/patina in the grooves really make the surface detail pop out, and made it easy to photograph against a white background - sometimes difficult with silver items. Pictures follow below. Thank you! ... Dave
    db_btsil_01.JPG
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    db_btsil_04.JPG
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    db_btsil_06.JPG
     
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  2. gimbler-dave

    gimbler-dave Well-Known Member

    Looking for hallmark info, I came across this near duplicate item (rather a surprise actually!):
    https://www.rubylane.com/item/509985-002222/Unusual-Jewish-Spice-Box78-Silver-Plate
    The rubylane piece is described as silverplate, although nothing currently makes me think the one we have is plated. If someone can read the hallmark, that may answer that question. This has a delicate nature that doesn't make me think plate.
     
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  3. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly The worst prison is a closed heart

    Maybe it's just the lighting but it looks like the silver is worn off the lid figure as well as the raised areas on the lid. It also looks worn on the raised areas on the body of the piece.....at least I think that's what I see.
     
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  4. Bakersgma

    Bakersgma Well-Known Member

    I was also thinking possibly silver plate from the pictures. Or one of the many non-silver alloys like "alpacca" or "nickel silver."

    Looking at the little fellow on top, he's off center, poorly cast (or at least not finely modeled) and to my eye doesn't even look like he belongs with the rest of the decor. He has no "silver" surface color now. The bottom edges of the body appear copperish, not silvery.

    There isn't anything about the marks on the bottom that rings any bells - solid or plated.
     
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  5. Bakersgma

    Bakersgma Well-Known Member

    Can we get a picture of the inside of the lid, Dave?
     
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  6. Bev aka thelmasstuff

    Bev aka thelmasstuff Colored pencil artist extraordinaire ;)

    I also think the man on the top is a later addition. Not the same quality as the container itself
     
  7. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly The worst prison is a closed heart

    The Rubylane piece seems to have the same little guy.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. gimbler-dave

    gimbler-dave Well-Known Member

    I'll follow with the inside of the lid. I was getting a better shot of the hallmark, plus two that answer the wear comments that just came in. I am including a couple of tight shots of wear on the body that does make it look like the underlying material is not silver.
    db_btsil_07.JPG
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    db_btsil_09.JPG
     
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  9. Bakersgma

    Bakersgma Well-Known Member

    Methinks that last picture provides the conclusive evidence of plating.

    Which means that the marks are not "hallmarks" so your searching should be confined to silverplate makers. But I don't even know what country to start with.

    It's interesting that the 2 side marks on the Rubylane item do look more like anchors than these do. Not sure that actually helps, though.
     
  10. gimbler-dave

    gimbler-dave Well-Known Member

    I wished I could see the Rubylane marks better, but they did look different and our middle mark is easy to describe as a "N" where that one the seller had a problem with. Here's the additional pictures showing inside of lid, rim area (where I'm surprised to not see wear revealing an underlying material), plus a couple of shots of the man who certainly looks like brass construction or ??? but not silver:
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  11. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    The Ruby Lane mark is similar in that it has what they say, probably correctly, is an anchor mark either side of what looks to me like the letter K. Would also point out the RL piece is described as plate.

    upload_2018-2-6_15-52-19.png

    Was exploring possibility that marks on OP's piece are Israeli. Hebrew uses an alphabetic way of writing numerals & does not seem to have a zero. The character used for 8 has some resemblance (thinking maybe 800 silver used) but...

    [​IMG]
    Edit: And just noticed they have a specific way of writing 800 that does not look the 8.
     
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  12. Bakersgma

    Bakersgma Well-Known Member

    2 upside down "shin"s?
     
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  13. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

  14. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    Brass most likely.
     
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  15. gimbler-dave

    gimbler-dave Well-Known Member

    I haven't looked at Bronwen's link yet, but wanted to update with some information on this side. I was discussing this piece with a local expert, and was mulling over the functional purpose of the piece. When I told him about the Rubylane piece, the light bulb went on - their title gets it correct, but in a very generic way. We believe it is a Spice Box, but much more specifically, one used in the Havdalah Ceremony used to celebrate the end of Shabat. It would have been filled with a variety of spices, and passed around to smell during the ceremony.
     
  16. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    It's weird. Maybe not to you as you know so much more about marks on imported silver than I do. The marks on the RL piece are in nice rectilinear cartouches & certainly could be the Birmingham anchor. The 2 punch marks on OP's piece are sloppy by comparison, in a more round cartouche. Would Israel have used a Roman letter as part of their marks? Just rattling on here. Guess we should look into whether 2 marks on this piece could be eroded punches for some other British assay office.
     
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  17. Bakersgma

    Bakersgma Well-Known Member

    We do know that it cannot be solid silver (appearance tells all) and no assay office in the UK would have any role in marking a plated item.
     
  18. gimbler-dave

    gimbler-dave Well-Known Member

    Thank you for that link Bronwen, I just had a chance to read it, and it expands on what I learned locally. May also suggest some keywords when I work up a title for a listing, so great material.
     
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  19. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    Pinterest did that thing to me where you click on what you want to see but get a whole lot of other stuff. Trying to follow this, was presented with photos of owls. Info with the pic in the search results says Hungary - 1681:

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. gimbler-dave

    gimbler-dave Well-Known Member

    Wow! The age is incredible and it is interesting to see those curved/lobed sides going that far back.
     
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