Trench Art Shell Mystery, W. Manzke, Hamburg, ?

Discussion in 'Militaria' started by springfld.arsenal, Mar 20, 2018.

  1. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    Here’s a WWI-dated British 18-pounder field gun cartridge case (84 x 295mm R) with inscriptions I’m trying to figure out. W. Manzke could well have been an American soldier, I see one with that name died in IL in 1965. No idea what “Hurley” signifies. An early tank is pictured. On base, in addition to W. Manzke, you can read Hamburg 27, Stresow Strasse, and 91. I’ve checked and there is a street by that name in Hamburg, Germany. What’s going on here?

    7E0B3247-0D12-44CE-A3B0-AC9006D44770.jpeg 3166875B-7291-4803-9861-ADC5D0287AF0.jpeg

    594A22EF-C399-4A89-A75A-44F47CB6ABC7.jpeg
    79CFD54C-146C-4207-A66E-3299DB4E2473.jpeg
    C39FAE8D-3604-44E5-9836-BDBEA414C3F2.jpeg

    7E338D2D-76B9-4DC0-A3A9-9BB87E9E04D7.jpeg

    E4E9C678-AC95-44B1-8798-520A0F57C7DD.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
    AJefferson likes this.
  2. Bakersgma

    Bakersgma Well-Known Member

    What does it say on the ribbons? near the bottom of the side? On the left (in the picture) it looks like 1917-18, but what about the letters around the curve on the right?
     
  3. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    “The Great War”
     
  4. Hollyblue

    Hollyblue Well-Known Member

    It's all "wriggle" engraved,something a 12 year old could do with a little practice.When was the term “The Great War” first used?The "patina" on the base looks a bite strange,some of the words look white while others look dark.Is there any money to be gained at making fake trench art?
     
    judy likes this.
  5. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    I think everything collectible has been faked to some extent, and I can’t say that trench art is an exception. Out of probably around 100 pieces of cartridge case trench art I bought when I was buying it personally, there were two items I later questioned as to authenticity. One is still in the collection and other was traded off. It was a large lamp with 3 arms coming out of the “projectile.” I call it fake because the cartridge case and projectile weren’t real ammunition items, but were made from brass tubing and machined fittings, then made into a lighthouse thing with bricks in relief, quite handsome overall. But there was so much work in that, I don’t see how the maker could profit, but ya never know. The only ones I’m somewhat suspicious of these days are those where the method of decoration was relatively easy to do and the subject matter is very desirable/popular (Lost Battalion, Lafayette Escadrille, Sgt. York, etc.). I think I posted the other one here “back when” and AF thought it was fake. Maybe someone will find that thread.
     
    Christmasjoy and judy like this.
  6. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    Any guesses as to what “Hurley” refers to? I’ve been in Hurley (Ulster County) NY, had to pick up a load of firearms-related material from a supplier in West Hurley. Not sure what the “structure” depicted, bearing the word “Hurley,” is supposed to represent.
     
    Christmasjoy likes this.
  7. Bakersgma

    Bakersgma Well-Known Member

    That's the only Hurley I can think of as well, Spring. And that just looks like 2 upright boards with a diagonal banner to me, although the "boards" seem not to have straight sides.
     
  8. daveydempsey

    daveydempsey Moderator Moderator

    The term "The Great War" was used throughout WWI 1914-18.
     
  9. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    Thanks Bakers. Well here’s “the other” Hurley in Berkshire, England. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurley,_Berkshire

    The cartridge case “host” for the artwork is definitely authentic and definitely British Army, but the art is strongly American-themed and the crudely-engraved text on the bottom points to Hamburg, Germany. And then Hurley is hurled at us. Anyone who can tie all those points together should be well-qualified to replace Stephen Hawking!
     
    Bakersgma likes this.
  10. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    Maybe one of our UK members will ring up the Hurley Library or village council and ask if they can determine if a “W. Manzke” lived there during the early 20th C? I’d call but I have somewhat of a Southern accent that may cause difficulty over the phone. Maybe I’ll call Hurley, NY and see if they have any ideas.
     
  11. Bakersgma

    Bakersgma Well-Known Member

    Good luck! I tried to find a W Manzke in the US at the time of The Great War (and old enough to serve) and also in the BIRLS file of military deaths. Found only 1 - living in Pennsylvania in 1918 when he registered for the WW1 draft. Could not find any at all in the BIRLS file (not that it's conclusive.) You said you found a W Manzke who died in Illinois in 1965? Just the initial, not full name?
     
  12. Huntingtreasure

    Huntingtreasure Well-Known Member

    What is the picture above the banner? Is it a ship?
     
  13. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    WW1 tank. There are smaller tank images in background and little crosses in the air are airplanes.
     
    Huntingtreasure likes this.
  14. Huntingtreasure

    Huntingtreasure Well-Known Member

  15. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    I think the first and 3rd entries here are same person in two different censuses, and he’s a candidate meriting further examination. The 4th, if born in 1904, would be too young to be in WW1. The one who died in 1965 I think was born in 1959, so he can be eliminated. 5th entry may be father of #1/3, and could have served in WW1, since he was 33 in 1917.

    60BBC980-222D-4954-9454-70C9CF8C230B.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  16. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    Ok, that’s a possible connection, first thought that popped into my head when I followed your link was that the scene depicted could have been based on a Frank Hurley photo. Can someone find a Hurley photo with tanks and planes?

    Anyway I like this photo that has nothing to do with our subject. Note especially 3rd projectile back.

    Quiz question: Why are the men rolling the projectiles down the ramp pointed in alternating directions?

    9CF03617-AA27-4DC3-9CF7-576E6BCCB425.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
    Christmasjoy likes this.
  17. springfld.arsenal

    springfld.arsenal Store: http://www.springfieldarsenal.net/

    Thanks, possibly! Tank on the brass is headed to left and one in photo is headed to right, but I expect Hurley took more than one photo of tanks.

    A kind of unrelated comment: on my other thread regarding the 6-pounder brass case with bird and Cupid ?, the WW1 US and British tanks had 6-pounder naval guns mounted in “sponsons” on either side. You can see the starboard one clearly in the photo. That’s probably how these cases got onto the battlefield to be later turned into trench art.
     
  18. Bakersgma

    Bakersgma Well-Known Member

    Good news! Found troop ship records for William E Manzke, Private, 42nd A A Battery, 5th A A Sector, both on his way to France (Oct 1918) and coming back (arrived New York, 1 Jan 1919.) His next of kin is a brother Reinhardt Manzke of Chicago. He appears to be the same William Manzke as you found census records for - all 3 1920, 1930 and 1940, seen above. Born 6 Feb 1895, Chicago, according to his Draft Card in 1918. Died March 1960, buried Niles, Cook County, Illinois. His brief obit mentions brother Reinhardt and membership in VFW Post 3582.

    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/108189726
     
  19. Bakersgma

    Bakersgma Well-Known Member

    Here's a picture of his info on one of the troop ship passenger lists.

    William E Manzke 2.jpg
     
  20. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    they fit better that way & so the ends don't touch one another.....
     
Draft saved Draft deleted
Similar Threads: Trench Shell
Forum Title Date
Militaria Trench art shell with letter Aug 19, 2019
Militaria Help interpret text under WWI trench art shell Jul 27, 2019
Militaria Trench art shells Oct 23, 2017
Militaria WWI aluminum men's rings - trench art? Apr 17, 2020
Militaria Hey Genies! Want some practice? Trench Art Name Mar 15, 2020

Share This Page