Featured Unknown Doulton mark in Satsuma style teaset

Discussion in 'Pottery, Glass, and Porcelain' started by midelburgo, Jan 21, 2019.

  1. midelburgo

    midelburgo New Member

    Hello all. This is my first post. I am actually a "silver" guy but at this moment I am going through an "aesthetics period" crisis and I bought a little pottery.

    Today I got what seems a Doulton japanesque hand-painted teaset, with unusual markings.
    11.jpg 2.jpg

    I have seen those marks before in several pieces by John Grinsell of Birmingham, usually ice buckets, biscuit barrels or ale jugs with a coopered body of oak and silver plate and inserts of (marked) china. From the silver parts I would say they date from about 1875-1878. The cupido is also the mark of Grinsell silver plate. I could find only another piece using "semper paratus" and "Doulton" on google, an ice bucket of similar decoration to my teaset. The three pieces of the teaset have a little silver at the rims, but it is unmarked.

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    Now the funny part is when I found on the creamer a mark similar to that of Hannah Barlow (one hour ago I did not even know who Hannah Barlow was). Not incised but painted. And with a less flowery H (no pictures yet sorry I have only the sellers and he did not notice that mark). Now these are flowers in a Satsuma style, which supossedly were not made by Hannah after 1873. If the mark is real, could this mean the teaset was painted painted between 1871 and 1873?

    Further I found a similar teaset on an auction site, labelled as Minton (I do not see marks there) and designed by Christopher Dresser... which is becoming typical.
    1.jpg
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    Any suggestion is wellcome. Please be kind if I said something weird, I am out of my field. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  2. judy

    judy Well-Known Member

    Hi Midelburgo!

    I can't help, but.............

    Welcome to Antiquers........
     
    scoutshouse and i need help like this.
  3. Houseful

    Houseful Well-Known Member

    I’m not sure this is from the U.K. Royal Doulton factory, looking at the backstamps there was no printed Doulton only impressed marks of the Doulton word. The little Cupid figure isn’t something I’ve ever seen that appears on Doulton ceramics with the usual Doulton marks.
     
  4. midelburgo

    midelburgo New Member

    Thank you Judy!

    Currently I think Grinsell could have contracted the Doulton that made the sanitary wares and toilets to do their simple inserts for ice buckets, and they added the Cupido mark, maybe even before 1871. Doulton possibly did not have yet a mark for tableware.

    But then. The teaset does not fit unless is one of the first decorative designs.

    There is also something impressed:
    5-84
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  5. judy

    judy Well-Known Member

    You're welcome Midelburgo!
     
  6. evelyb30

    evelyb30 Well-Known Member

    Welcome. I know little if anything about old porcelain/pottery, but I'd have bought the tea set for the staple repair. Call me a sucker, but it generally means someone thought highly of a piece, even if it was a piece of junk even before it broke.
     
  7. Ownedbybear

    Ownedbybear Well-Known Member

    It's certainly not Doulton Lambeth and not any of the Barlows. They all worked for the Lambeth factory, which did indeed become Royal Doulton later as did the separate Burslem one.

    This looks like a variant of the Doulton Burslem printed mark, about 1900 ish. The rest of it is a pattern designation. Nothing to do with Dresser.

    I don't know of Doulton Lambeth doing inserts like that - they'd have been more likely to be stoneware or earthenware, any how. I think the cupid is coincidence.
     
  8. midelburgo

    midelburgo New Member

    I think the style is not important because somebody was told to copy a real Japanese piece. I just noticed each vessel is also marked in incission under the varnish with a simple DOULTON close to the border.

    Grinsell & sons was around since 1871 (or even 1864). The cupido mark was registered in 1879, although it could have been used before, the teaset has to be after 1879 because it says registered.

    http://www.silvercollection.it/ENGLAGRINSELL.html
    https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/d...ate-butter-dish-circa-1890-cow/id-f_12691311/
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
    scoutshouse likes this.
  9. Ownedbybear

    Ownedbybear Well-Known Member

    If there's an incised mark, it could be slightly earlier than 1900 then. But it isn't Lambeth, it's Burslem. The decoration is pretty typical.

    As to that so called Minton/Dresser, what's often forgotten is that several factories made the same shape, either because they copied, or because they bought the design.
     
    i need help and judy like this.
  10. midelburgo

    midelburgo New Member

    The most similar design by Dresser is this kettle in an Australian museum. Nowadays every thing seeming a bit like his work becomes attributed on flimsy stylistic grounds. Still probably not even 10% of his production can be atributed without doubts.

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    And this is valid for the containers. To have the makers making his surface decoration designs or choice of colors was often beyond his power.

    This is currently at ebay, marked with plain DOULTON. Seller says Burslem c1882.

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    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
    Bakersgma, i need help and judy like this.
  11. Cris Drugan ISA-AM

    Cris Drugan ISA-AM Active Member

    Grinsell & Sons produced items like this. Could be the form was contracted or bought from Doulton and decorated by Grinsell.
     
  12. Ownedbybear

    Ownedbybear Well-Known Member

    There's no history of Doulton subbing shapes to silversmiths. Or anyone else, for that matter. What did happen was a great deal of copying - derivation, if we're being polite. And of course, fashions.
     
  13. midelburgo

    midelburgo New Member

    The relation between Grinsell and Doulton was a long one. A search in google probes it. But there is no logic in having Grinsell logo on a mostly pottery item. It could be a prize or an advertisement for Grinsell.
    Shall this one go in the silverplate section, pottery or carved wood?
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