Featured Fake, repro or genuine......?

I mentioned in the thread on the SS Totenkopf ring that I used to collect Third Reich daggers. I also mentioned that I no longer collect them, nor have any in my collection.

There are so many reproductions and fakes around today that collecting them is a real minefield. The reason that I stopped collecting them was because of a German Kriegsmarine (navy) officers dagger that I bought. I'll explain....

I found a beautiful, mint condition navy dagger, complete with its bullion knot and hanging straps and belt, made by F.W.Höller of Solingen. The dagger was mint and complete, as all of those that I had were. However, a while later I saw another couple of them for sale, in the same condition and also complete. It transpired that they were made from original wartime parts, but assembled much, much later.
That had me thinking, what is a fake or a repro? The dagger was genuine in that the parts were made by Höller during the war, but was never assembled nor worn by any officer at that time.
It was not a fake as such, nor was it a reproduction, but at the same time it was in the truest sense not genuine either.
That sowed so much doubt in my mind that I sold all mine, and it is a question that I still cannot answer some 40 years later. Forgetting the politics and connections, would you have been happy owning it, or would you too have passed it on?
The above question obviously applies to any 'antique' not just the daggers in question.

As one can see, they are rather beautiful daggers....


With apologies for posting something with a swastika on, I hope no one is offended.

 

You're right. It's beautiful workmanship. It's not 100% genuine, but not a fake either. It's closer to what antiquers call NOS - New, Old Stock. The pieces are old, but it was sitting on a factory closet shelf for decades after manufacture.

 

My mom’s husband was a WWII military collector and had a number of Nazi-era pieces. Personally, I always found them unsettling to look at. At the same time, I don’t believe he was glorifying them or what they represented.

So I have mixed feelings. I could never personally own items like that, but I do understand and respect serious collectors who preserve artifacts from this very dark period of history for historical reasons rather than admiration.

 

With objects made before mass production, the assemblage of parts with different origins might be called a "marriage" or "pastiche", with the implication that the resulting piece would not be considered genuine.

But in this instance, the object is composed of parts that were manufactured to be identical and interchangeable. It is, in a sense, a restoration - reuniting parts with the same origin that were intended to be an assemblage.

I like evelyb's framing it as "New, Old Stock".

The only problematic possibility that I can see is if such an assemblage was being represented as an association piece - having been owned or used by some important individual. That would make it a deceptive fake.

 

I would have no issue at all with the lag in assembly, given the authenticity of all the bits an' pieces. An' especially so since there could be no quibble about the object having had zero association with any individual or group during the war. It is, plainly, a piece of specialized, high art.

 

Swastika doesn't bug me.... but the SS would......

made from original wartime parts.......... and likely assembled in the same manner as during wartime.

Not all guns and swords and daggers were used...... so authenticity and price would , I think , guide my purchase. If all the known variables were disclosed !!!!

 

I'll start by saying I abhor the Nazis, and I'd be uncomfortable owning either original items or reproduction memorabilia. But they were stylish bastards, weren't they?

 

Early on especially, they sure were.
I found a butter knife from a Nazi Air Corps mess once. Sold it on for a dollar. It didn't creep me out much; it's hard to get the creeps from something that only sliced up cooked potatoes and maybe a sausage.

 

Good point. I suppose they stamped their government property marks on just about everything, which at the time was pretty much everything, wasn't it? Hard to condemn a kitchen knife. I've read that many of the veterans that later served in the West German forces had military like the Knight's Cross re-issued sans swastika.

 

Lots of them were draftees - gun to their heads draftees. They just wanted to live long enough to go home. And yes, they stamped everything they could. It probably came home with some GI who most likely used it as designed - buttering bread and slicing dinner.

 

Personally I would never be able own this especially as a Jew. However, I understand a collector may see it from a different point of view. As it is a part of history that should be remembered so it is not repeated . Oddly enough my DIL is German, born & raised & they live there. They could not own anything like that.

 

Anyhting official to do with the nazis or that had a swastika on it was sanctioned by the party and had the RZM mark on it. Every item thus marked also had a small percentage of the cost paid to the party, even Hitler got a rake off from the party for using his head on postage stamps! There are though locally made unofficial items without the RZM mark, but all official party daggers etc had it, and they were responsible for design and quality etc. The RZM stands for Reichszeugmeisterei.

Frank, yes that is quite true about the Ritterkreuz being reissued without a swastika. The showing of this emblem in Germany is still, and quite rightly, illegal. Aircraft are displayed in museums for instance with the Balkan Kreuz only, never the swastika. There are weapons dealers there who though they sell original weapons, all images on their website are edited so as not to show the emblem.

The historical aspect of these items is fascinating, but I totally respect and understand those who cannot, or will not, have anything to do with them. The funny thing though is that if you are an opera lover, as I am, then when you go to Covent Garden and see a Wagner opera, see how many elderly German people are there. They absolutely love Wagner, but so too did Hitler, Reinzi being amongst his favourites.

As Evelyn has pointed out, many were drafted into the SS. Most notable perhaps being the actors Hardy Kruger and Horst Tappert (Derrick), who was transferred from the army into the SS. Kruger was a young teenager at the end of the war when he was drafted into the Waffen SS.

my apoligies, as this wasn't meant to be a discussion on the Third Reich, but merely thought I'd point out a few osbervations.