Minton pate-sur-pate - real or fake?

Hi all,

I recently bought a pair of vases from a Boston antiques dealer. I bought them because I liked them and without any information about their maker or age. Only after I bought them did I begin researching them. The dealer made no representations about their origin and claimed to not know much about them.

As best as I can determine they appear to be pate-sur-pate vases made by Mintons in the 1875-1810 time frame. However, two things make me question their authenticity.

First, the carved figures, while nice, seem to be a bit cruder and have slightly less fine detail than many of the pictures of similar Mintons vases I have found on the internet.

Second, while there is a Mintons mark on the bottoms of the vases it does not seem to be the appropriate mark for the time period. From what I have read, the mark design on my vases was only used by Mintons in the early 19th century, whereas the Louis Salon pate-sur-pate vases were only made after 1875 or so. See,

http://www.victoriana.com/tilepatterns/mintontiles.html

http://www.oldandsold.com/pottery/greatbritain22.shtml

Further, all of the other Mintons marks on pate-sur-pate vases I have seen posted on the internet have been of the crown/globe variety.

I have attached some pictures. Would appreciate any insights or expertise. My working hypothesis is that they might be old knock-off's perhaps made contemporaneously in the 1875-1910 timeframe when this style was popular.

Thanks.

 

"a Boston antiques dealer..... without any information about their maker or age."

Hey , isn't that a red flag from the get go ???

 

Amen.
Judging by the lack of scratches and wear underneath as well as the gilding and also the quality I'll go out on an uneducated limb and say 2010-11 China.

Oops .. forgot to say WELCOME CHEST

 

Hi Chest, Welcome to the Forum!
I don’t know much on this subject, but I would agree the quality doesn’t seem to be the same. Others who know more will be along.
That being said, I REALLY appreciate your being open to finding out the truth!
Can’t tell you how many people join here, refusing to accept they may not have what they believed.
Again, Welcome!

 

Welcome @Chest Rockwell +I agree they don't look as nicely done as what I would expect to see, however I am no expert when it comes to identifying fakes.

 

When a dealer claims not to know much about them, alarm bells should ring. Minton pate sur pate is fabulous. I have always said if I had plenty of money I would collect Minton pate sur pate. They are not the quality of Minton.

 

Welcome Chest.
I agree with the above. On the upside, you liked them enough to have bought them without knowing what they were. So enjoy them.

 

Hi Chest!

Welcome to Antiquers...........

 

Looks to me more like a Mary Gregory type thing than pate-sur-pate.

 

Yes it does, @moreotherstuff !! thanks!!

 

Follow-up. For those who might be interested, I had these vases evaluated by an expert in English porcelain. My suspicions were confirmed that these are fakes. More particularly, i was told the following:

"Sadly, you are correct in your concern, these vases are copies, probably made in the latter part of the 20th century or into the 21st century. The decoration appears to have been done with thick white enamel rather than slip used on the originals. Original Minton pate sur pate pieces now command large sums so it has become worth people trying to copy them."

 

Thank you for the update and Sorry for the outcome.

 

Urg.

Bit of a late comment, I missed this first time round - that gilding is horribly sloppy. Minton did quality hand gilding.

They're pretty, hope you didn't pay to much.