Featured Antique Russian Cloisonne Cigarette Case (1907)

Discussion in 'Antique Discussion' started by DBinSV, Apr 4, 2018.

  1. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Were you thinking of the reddish-brownish parts where the tab meets the cloisonné? That could be some sort of residue. I notice there is also some reddish-brown on one of the filigree wires.
     
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  2. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    @DBinSV , the reason why I suggested taking it to a reputable jeweler's first, was to ascertain whether it was silver gilt or gold.
    The silverforum is a treasure trove of knowledge on silver, and I commend them for it. We all use them for reference. But over the years my questions on gold items, including two of antique Russian gold, remained unanswered.
    I stopped asking them, of course, and began to invest in books on gold. I also found forums on items from the Russian Imperial period online. The most interesting one, on antique Russian precious metal items, no longer exists, unfortunately.
    With the excellently detailed extra information you have added, it seems more likely that the case is silver gilt, but if it were mine I'd want to be sure.

    Cheryl raises the issue of testing possibly being destructive, I have heard that before from members from the US.
    I am in the Netherlands, and am used to jewelers using non-destructive, high-tech methods. I've seen them do it, if you want you can be present while they test, but don't ask me how it works. I thought that was the general way to test nowadays, but apparently not.
    So if you want to have it tested, you'd better check first. Or come to the Netherlands.;)
     
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  3. DBinSV

    DBinSV Active Member

    @Figtree3: I'm most interested in what the dates and letters on the front signify. Do you know, @DBinSV ?
    No, I do not. When I asked my grandmother about this in 1984, she was already elderly and did not recall.

    @Any Jewelry: I think the first thing to do is have the metal tested by a reliable jeweler who can also test for gold plated.
    Your suggestion is most appreciated. In view of the expense that this would involve and the fact I am just trying to do the best I can to pass along information to my niece and nephew together with the family keepsakes, I'm afraid it would not be practical for me as a person of rather modest means to engage in such testing.

    @Any Jewelry: So if you want to have it tested, you'd better check first. Or come to the Netherlands.
    My wife and I would love to visit the Netherlands! From what I understand, it's a beautiful country with wonderful people.

    I am awaiting some responses at the forum to which I was kindly referred by @DragonflyWink.

    In the meantime, I will post a question about another piece in the collection, as a new thread. Thank you again, one and all, for your valuable time, expertise and ideas!
     
  4. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Well, another reason to come to the Netherlands, the jewelers around here don't charge anything for something as simple as that.:)

    Will you let us know what they said on the other forum? We'd love to know.
    Looking forward to your new thread.
     
  5. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    While the ivory is not going to be worth much....this case may have some substantial value.......
    Sell it and take the kids to Disneyland !
    You'll be their hero !
    :playful::playful::playful::playful::playful::playful::playful::playful:
     
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  6. Msalicia

    Msalicia Well-Known Member

    Are the initials between the dates Top A and bottom V as in Albert and Victoria? Wouldn’t that be nice??
     
  7. wiscbirddog

    wiscbirddog Well-Known Member

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  8. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    & while help on an older thread is not unheard of or un-welcomed......
    just check the bottom left of the post to see when it was put up...:):)
     
  9. stracci

    stracci Well-Known Member

    @Any Jewelry , you are a goddess! I humbly bow to you........ :woot:

    Oops! It is an old thread. But Any Jewelry is still a goddess!
     
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  10. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    :shame:
     
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  11. DragonflyWink

    DragonflyWink Well-Known Member

    This old thread was from when I was 24/7 caregiver for my Mom - don't remember it and am amazed I was even capable of coherent thought, much less posts of more than one sentence...

    Here is the OP's thread on the 925-1000 Russian forum:

    https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=50399

    ~Cheryl
     
  12. DrPam

    DrPam Active Member

    I’m wondering what the meaning may be of the tiny mix of an Arabic and Roman numeral between the two dates. The number “21” on top and the number “V” below.
     
  13. DragonflyWink

    DragonflyWink Well-Known Member


    Not particularly uncommon, have seen the use of Roman numerals for the month on quite a few European pieces over the years...


    Here is the form on a silverplate notepad-holder that sits on my desk:

    932020105756.jpg


    ~Cheryl
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
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  14. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    You were brilliant in all your posts during the entire time.:) Maybe a case of hyperfocus?:playful:
    So not by Antip Kuzmichev, which was not definite here either. As I said, it looks like it. For the rest there doesn't seem to be a consensus as to when, if I read it correctly.
    I couldn't find if they were talking about 88 silver or gold, but my brain only switches on intermittently when having to read more than a few sentences. ADD and brain damage, a great combination.:wacky:
     
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  15. DragonflyWink

    DragonflyWink Well-Known Member

    Just a few snippets, from various posters on the Russian forum:


    "The fineness is 88 zolotniki, in promille 916,67/1000." -Qrt.S


    "Discrepancies: suspicious marks on the `lip`` ,rather average quality and ``88`` standard." -AG2012


    "The application seems to be riveted , which is typical for Russian objects. What bothers me now is indeed the fineness. Usually this fineness of 88 zolotniki was used more seldom and on high quality objects. As AG2012 also mentioned the case is of "average standard" and therefore a bit "suspicious" it being made in 88 zolotniki." -Qrt.S


    "Just an observation that the attached date appears to be a 25th anniversary commemoration: 1882 - 21/V - 1907. (That is, 21 May 1882 - 1907). Logic dictates, then, that it would have been made in 1907 and, if so, then the 1882/98 marks cannot be right; why make a commemorative case 9 to 25 years before the event occurs?

    I suppose the applied inscription could have been added later, perhaps replacing and earlier one, but I would think there would be some evidence of this on the case itself. Is there? Also, does the date 21 May 1882 have any significance to the provenance - a wedding date perhaps?

    I concur - something here is amiss." -blakstone


    "Family history and its traditional narratives are always to be treated with caution! Especially when the facts give a completely different interpretation.

    1) A 102-year-old cigarette case looks different - even when packaged in a safe the entire time.
    2) An Enamel cloisonné cigarette case by Kuzmichev looks totally different and has an outstanding quality. I have shown some examples of his work - the match is zero! I am sorry but I can give you no better answers."
    -Goldstein


    ~Cheryl
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
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  16. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Thanks Cheryl, that makes it a bit easier to read.:kiss:
     
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  17. DragonflyWink

    DragonflyWink Well-Known Member


    Good! The forums have become so heavily monetized in the last few years that the ads have made it a bit difficult for me to read at times...

    ~Cheryl
     
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  18. Msalicia

    Msalicia Well-Known Member

    Sometimes I just keep scrolling,learning, and of course admiring everyone’s comments and posts. I personally think some people keep things they like and maybe they might be interested in new information from people that post albeit out of current posts. It’s all good. Thank you for your information.
     
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