Featured Chinese? Puce painted Saucer Dish, Age?

I have had this little saucer dish for some years, assuming it was English or European 18th century. I have now been told that it is definitely Chinese, but possibly painted in Europe. Having searched for similar items I think the painting is probably also Chinese, but would like the opinions of some of the helpful people on Antiquers, particularly about age. I was suprised how few puce items I could find online, was this a rare form of decoration? Or perhaps I am using the wrong search term? The rather uneven surface of the dish when viewed against the light, is unlike anything else I have in my collection. The painting is very delicate and fine, and I love the little insect, which I think may be to cover a fault in the porcelain, or perhaps just for fun.

 

I believe it is Chinese porcelain, but I have my doubts about the decoration being Chinese - it could be of course, but I really don't see too much ware using that coloured enamel in a singular sense, none I can recall handling at least.
It could be a custom order to match an existing European pattern, I believe there is an 18thc Meissen/Ludwigsburg/Frankenthal/Copenhagen et al pattern somewhat similar in both color and style in that general taste so anything is possible.

Stylistically the decoration is not 100% typical of oriental work, but it does have similarities, so that observation isn't totally conclusive.
The bug, used like this is not really a Chinese device, as you probably know bugs were a European device originally designed to disguise defects in the glaze.

I have some late 18thc export ware with a unique and custom pattern, not as fine as yours by any means and the paste is quite a bit more on the grey side of things. If you look at the form of the saucer, compare the footrim distance to the saucer rim. Yours might be much earlier than this late Qianlong piece of mine so that may account for the difference in paste and construction if it is indeed Chinese.

 

Date wise I would feel quite confident with 18th century but at which end I can’t say. Looks very similar to the patterns used by Giles in the 1770s so second half 18th c is my guess (only a guess don’t take as gospel).

I do think that the decoration could well be Chinese.

 

I wonder if there is any connection with the colour and the flea, must look it up!

What a fabulous cup and saucer! I would never have guessed it was Chinese, was it a replacement for a European service? With Europeans copying the Chinese and each other, and the Chinese copying the Europeans, it takes a real expert to sort it all out. I doubt if I will ever handle enough relevant pieces to get a feel for it, I still can't tell soft paste from hard paste! If it was a European practice to turn flaws into insects, that does make me wonder, although whether it was European decorated by German decorators or by someone imitating Chinese decoration or vice versa . . . Looking closely at the body of the insect, it may be a bit of grit or other matter, with legs etc painted around it! The only similar decoration I have been able to find is a Qianlong piece for sale, (at a fabulous price!), which is described as rare:
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/a...d-porcelain-plate-18th-century/id-f_14509952/
Of course that may have been made in China imitating European decoration . . .
Many thanks for your comments, much appreciated!

 

Could be 18th century. On early porcelain, tiny insects might be painted on specifically to hide flaws in the body. I suspect it's European stem to stern.

 

If it was Chinese exported white and European decorated that might explain the insect, but if one was going to do such delicate work, why choose a saucer with such a large flaw which needed disguising? You have all re-opened my mind about where it was decorated, although the general opinion seems to be it was made in China. I would be happy with any origin and decorator, although decorated by James Giles, or in an early German factory, would be a definite plus!

 

Valerie, It looks to me like you have found another piece from the same service as the one in the link as the decoration is identical.
That provenance pretty much solidifies the fact that it is a Chinese piece and also decorated in China, no doubt by special order for a particular European customer. It is rare of course because there was probably only ONE service like it, similar to my coffee cup and saucer ..a design taken to China by a merchant to be produced in that pattern.
As an aside, I have a few more pieces of the above service, in total I have six cups and saucers, a helmet creamer, sugar bowl and cover, three slop bowls and a couple of side plates.
Anyway, I think you can rest assured that you have an 18thc piece of Chinese export from the same service as the piece so well provenanced in the link you discovered. And yes, decorated in China also.

 

Blooey, thank you very much for your expertise, I think I can leave off searching now and regard it as Chinese, decorated to order for a European customer, and rare! (It has a little bit of damage so I don't think I can regard it as very valuable, but probably worth more than I paid for the lot it was in.) Although the insect is still a bit of a puzzle, maybe the flaw was disguised by the recipient, the painting is so crude. And there are still several people who think perhaps European decoration. Maybe there is a European service that was used as a pattern, if the design was taken out to China.
How did you identify your wonderful tea service? Did it come with provenance, perhaps kept carefully by the original owners and then handed down for generations? Or did you find clues in the fabric and decoration? It looks so incredibly top class European. I have sometimes toured stately homes in England and gazed at the china in cabinets, but I never picture myself using them, rather I imagine being the scullery maid who has to handle them carefully while washing them up, afraid of breaking an item worth a month's wages!

 

Valerie, In 18thc., the era when your piece was produced, the addition of small insects to the decoration of porcelain was to disguise the blackish iron spots in the glaze, as we spoke about above.

I don't know where the practice originated, possibly at Meissen, they were at the forefront of most early innovation, so quite likely. These insect devices were soon seen in other factory productions and not always used as something to disguise a flaw but as a design element in an attempt to appeal to the same upmarket customers.
Eventually magnets were introduced into the manufacture of the porcelain and the iron spots disappeared from the wares ...in the meantime though, these insect devices were decidedly fashionable and included as part of the decorators toolbox.
In my opinion the pattern of your piece is very like a European porcelain design of the period, which is the reason why some people suggested it was a Chinese piece decorated in Europe ..logical to some degree, but to me it seems far more likely that this service was based on a German original taken to China by a merchant in order to fulfill a request from a European family. This practice is certainly not unique as there are many other examples of similar services known.

Regarding my own pieces, well, apart from the decoration, they are very typical of late 18thc Chinese Export porcelain both in construction, shape and paste. The "helmet" creamer, for instance. is a typical late 18th/early 19th shape we see in Chinese Export.

 

Love the helmet jug. So Chinese and yet so English too - fabulous.