84 Sterling - Russian?

Persia had to cede the northern part of their country, in the Caucasus, to Russia, but it wasn't a Russian vassal state. They found other (than Russian) European allies to stand up to the Russians.
The Russian 84 mark was introduced to Persia by Armenian silversmiths, except they used it for .840 fineness, not for 84 zolotniki (.875 fineness). This is not like Armenian work though.

 

Although Persia was never directly invaded, it gradually became economically dependent on Europe. The Anglo-Russian Convention of 1907 formalised Russian and British spheres of influence over the north and south of the country, respectively, where Britain and Russia each created a " sphere of influence", where the colonial power had the final "say" on economic matters.
Ergo a vassal state.
Persian silver is generally marked with the number “84” in Farsi (later stamped in Arabic numerals), for a silver fineness of 875/1000. The standard is based on the adjoining Russian system. Introduction by Armenian silversmiths is not a given.

 

This piece, and the others found like it, bear no resemblance to Persian silver, but beyond that, while not necessarily discounting that the style of the stamps was influenced by Russian zolotnik marks, personally haven't seen anything but anecdotal reference that the '84' or '90' marks, regardless of form, indicate other than minimum .840 and .900 fineness (Persian marks are also found as '84%' and '90%'), or that the Russian government mandated the fineness of silver used in Persia. The '84' marks are also found on mid-century pieces, accompanied by the 1967-79 Iranian 'armed lion' mark for .840 fineness...

~Cheryl

 

Agree.

Since this thread is about a cup with a pre-1908 Russian mark, I assumed we were talking about the period the mark was in Russian use, not just the final year. After all, in 1908 the Russians began to use the oval kokoshnik mark which included the woman's head wearing a traditional Russian kokoshnik, hence the name.
That is why I wrote about the 19th century loss of the Caucasus.
In spite of the change of power, the thousands of years of cultural ties between that region and Persia remained. Which is why there were so many Armenian silver and goldsmiths in Persia. Many were still there when I was in Teheran in the early 70s, btw. I still have a Persian-Armenian ring which was bought in Teheran in the 70s.

Armenian silversmiths have had a huge influence on silver techniques in the Middle East (and the Ottoman Empire) anyway, so I would never dismiss the part they played. They are a given in the history of precious metal processing in the region. And they were the ones who started using the 84 zolotnik mark for the traditional Persian .840 silver fineness, not for .875 fineness. If you test Persian silver with the 84 mark, you will find out.

Not to go into the final year of the use of the mark, and the situation in Persia too much, I would just like to add that the Anglo-Russian convention of 1907 did not turn Persia into a Russian vassal state in the real sense. The entire country was a Persian constitutional monarchy. The country was split into three zones, not two. Two of the zones would be influenced by foreign powers, the northern zone being Russian influenced. Neither Britain nor Russia had legislative power, so neither ever changed legislation regarding assay marks.
In short, Russia had no power to seize the one year 'window of opportunity' before the change to the kokoshnik mark to quickly introduce one single zolotnik mark out of a total of four. So it is not a given.

 

was this cup properly tested ?
if not it may be post WWII French fakes with the silverplate 84 and an additional rather simple decoration plus an add'l hand hammered sterling.

 

Not ever tested. But I'm fairly certain of the family history. It belonged to my uncle who died in 1935 at age 18yr and would have gotten it for his Bar Mitzvah in 1930 in NY. Appreciate your thoughts.

 

your family history has nothing to do with the marks; the French mark would be older than that.
these are massed-produced beakers with "interesting" marks for "silver" collectors. the engravings on most are so primitive that it would not have been bought by Jewish people of a normal standing even back at the end of the 19th c..
I once bought one cheaply online and showed it around to some people I knew were members of the liberal Jewish community in Basel and they laughed me off.
so ebay listing with all its row of marks and it brought three times as much as I paid.
guess where it went.
a) New York
b) America
c) the US of A

 

I also have a full set here, clearly Kiddush cups (there was another set of 7 various cups just like yours but with full imperial Russian marks in on them in the house, I do estate sales) that are stamped 84 Sterling. I am also trying to find out more about this set.

 

In this case - US product - Sterling is 9.25 fineness and the numeric indication is not necessary. The number starting with 8 is not an indication of fineness here. Much more likely to be a maker's design or product number.

 

sloppy 84 ? did the English ask foreign silver being re-tested and marked accordingly some time ?

 

84 does not equate to the sterling standard in use in the USA, nor the same in England. And this was not imported into England either, having no English assay or import marks.

 

what is it then ? fake ?

 

What? The "sterling" mark?