Featured Any ideas on this family daguerreotype?

Discussion in 'Ephemera and Photographs' started by Melissa4384, Aug 26, 2019.

  1. BaseballGames

    BaseballGames Well-Known Member

    Komo, we'd be 99.999% certain the OP's picture isn't Abe & Mary, but it's too small and blurry here to say with absolute certainty. But what we were referring to was the pic you found on that website, and that site's (not your!) utterly ridiculous claim that their pic is Abe & Mary. So yeah, we took it that you, too, found the website's ID patently wrong. Outside of similar hairstyles, there's no resemblance whatsoever. Three of the woman in the photo wouldn't make one Mary, and even a cursory comparison of the facial features quickly and totally rules out that guy being Abe. Kirk and Spock have as much resemblance to the real Abe & Mary as the couple in the photo does. And by the way, is "The Savage Curtain" not one of the worst episodes of the beloved ST:TOS...? :playful:
     
  2. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    well....it's not one of the best , that's for sure.....but I like the rock alien....and the dressing down he gives Kirk !!

    The web site is kinda goofy ...but I thought the pic would add to the discussion .... and it did.....even though it's not them !!
     
  3. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    I just want to emphasize that I meant to cast no aspersions on @komokwa. My critique is directed solely at the deluded owner of the "Abe & Mary" daguerreotype, (and certainly not at @Melissa4384, who started this thread with an unrelated photo). :)
     
  4. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    It's my fault for bringing it up , but Mel agreed, so I thought I'd run with it.

    The two posts before mine were proper in stating ....it could be anyone.....& I should have left it there , but I had an itch I had to scratch.....:rolleyes:

    I don't take any comments posted on this thread personally.....
    So....we're good here 2MB !
     
  5. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    It was an interesting detour.
     
  6. Christmasjoy

    Christmasjoy Well-Known Member

    I read through most of that website until utter boredom overcame me ... the photo was a joke, NOTHING LIKE Abe and Mary, waste of time ... Joy. :meh:
     
  7. pearlsnblume

    pearlsnblume Well-Known Member

    It always amazes me how the ladies of those days managed to look put together with their hairstyles. I would have looked like a total mess if I lived back then.
     
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  8. Fid

    Fid Well-Known Member

    looks like Prof. Dr. Fritz Blümel with his wife Hannelore from Deppendorf. he fled to the US when the French tried to introduce a minimal cultural education in the kingdom of Westphalia, which was reigned by Napoleon's brother Jérôme. after the yokels refused to learn anything about the finer things of life, his post as village teacher was abolished.
     
  9. MyrtleBeach55

    MyrtleBeach55 Member

    I was thinking the same thing... a young Lincoln.
     
    Aquitaine likes this.
  10. Joseph Mason

    Joseph Mason New Member

    To:twotoomanybooks .....you said in post #23 .... "My critique is directed solely at the deluded owner of the Abe & Mary daguerreotype, and certainly not at @Melissa4384, who started this thread with an unrelated photo."
    As the "deluded owner" of the Abe & Mary dag, and therefore not very bright, I looked up "critique" (like you - I also own two books - and one just happens to be a dictionary) and saw the following definitions for critique ... noun - a detailed analysis and assessment of something; and ... verb - evaluate in a detailed and analytical way. Since you, like other members of the Lincoln community and their surrogates, are seemingly unfamiliar with critiquing, I would urge you (and BaseballGames) to go to my website at abeandmarydag.com to get a little fetching up on how to apply it properly. Arrivederci. Joseph Mason
     
  11. BaseballGames

    BaseballGames Well-Known Member

    Having read your website thoroughly back in August, we stand by every word in our post.
     
  12. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    Hello Mr. Mason,

    In several entries on this thread, I explained my reasons to doubt the identification of your daguerreotype. I did not see a reason to spend time going into further detail as, for me, simply looking at the faces was sufficient to see they are not Abraham Lincoln and Mary Todd Lincoln. I have seen numerous historic photographs of Abraham Lincoln, as well as the few that exist of Mary Todd Lincoln. By the same means that we are able to recognize a friend on the street, or in a photograph, I can see that these are not the same people.

    However, I can go into more detail on several points that support my view.

    You contend that your daguerreotype was taken in March of 1861. The style of the mat and preserver (the gold foil wrapped around the edges of the image, mat and cover glass) are more typical of the period between the late 1840’s and first half of the 1850’s. (http://www.phototree.com/id_dag.htm) 1861 would be quite late in the popularity of the daguerreotype process. Collodion wet plate photography was introduced in the mid 1850’s, and was in general use by the early 1860’s. The prominent photographer Mathew Brady, for example, who made many of the official portraits of Lincoln, had transitioned to wet plate photography by 1860. The wet plate process created glass negatives, from which multiple images could be printed on paper. While a daguerreotype would not be impossible in 1861, it seems unlikely that a record of such an important time would be made in what was then an “old fashioned” technology.

    A second major anachronism is the dress of the woman in your daguerreotype. This style, with the dropped shoulders, flaring sleeves, a low, pointed waist, and cartridge pleated skirt, decorated with ribbons, pleats and lace, is typical of mid-century styles – 1845-1855. Her hairstyle is also more consistent with the mid-century. (https://fashionhistory.fitnyc.edu/1840-1849/, https://fashionhistory.fitnyc.edu/1850-1859/)
    Note that this corresponds with the estimated date of the daguerreotype itself. Mary Todd Lincoln was notoriously fashion conscious. It seems unlikely that she would be wearing anything but the latest fashion on the day of the inauguration.
    Mary Todd Lincoln in her inaugural gown:
    [​IMG]
    https://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2017/01/20/style/a-look-back-at-inaugural-ball-dresses.html
    And her dress for the Washington winter social season, 1861-1862:
    [​IMG]
    https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_1359703

    Although it seems fruitless to argue any fine points of physiognomy with you, I would also point out that the documented photographs of Abraham Lincoln around this time period show that he preferred to wear his beard with a slight notch on the sides – the goatee part extending upward on either side of the mouth. The man in your daguerreotype has a clean shaven line along the top of his beard.
    [​IMG]
    Photograph by Samuel Altschuler, November 25, 1860.
    [​IMG]
    Photograph by Alexander Gardner, February 14, 1861.
    Both of these from:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photographs_of_Abraham_Lincoln
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
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  13. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    ahhh, the plot thickens....:wideyed:
     
  14. Joseph Mason

    Joseph Mason New Member

    2manybooks - you are aware that the photo you posted of Mary that purports to be her 1861 inaugural ball attire was actually taken in early 1862, no? Of course not.
    Question: was the gown that Mary wore to the 1861 inaugural ball white?
    Answer: NO.
    Question: was the gown that Mary wore to the 1861 inaugural ball blue?
    Answer: Yes.
    Question: Did Mary wear seed pearl jewelry to the 1861 inaugural ball?
    Answer: NO.
    The Lincoln community members are prolific purveyors of misinformation relating to Abraham and Mary Lincoln. Please do your research. Print and digital media outlets rely on the biographical information provided to them by the Lincoln community in the mistaken belief that the information is accurate. Much of it is not. The time and effort it takes to research primary source materials is minimal.
    The color of Mary's 1861 inaugural ball gown is not open to debate. There was overwhelming and incontrovertible evidenced presented on the Lincoln Discussion Symposium site that someone posted a link to earlier on this thread, albeit after some pushback from members who refused to let go of long held beliefs.
    If you are interested in the truth, I would urge you to study the history of photography. John Craig ... The Daguerreian Registry ... an invaluable resource.
     
  15. BaseballGames

    BaseballGames Well-Known Member

    Oh fer cryin' out loud. We'd suggest someone has an ulterior motive at play, but we'll give them the benfit of the doubt and consider they may be suffering from prosopagnosia. Please consult your physician.
    We don't care if the alleged Abe & Mary imitators are wearing ballgowns, bowling shirts, clown suits, or space suits. It ain't Abe & Mary, as is readily, blatantly apparent to almost everyone here, and if a moment's eyeballing of Lincoln's face and the innocent impostor's face isn't enough, maybe a quick class in Facial Recognition 101 will help. That's Lincoln in 1859 on the left, Lincoln in 1861 on the right.
    [​IMG]
    First thing when comparing images of faces to determine if they're the same person: look for differences, not similarities. Everybody has facial similarities to someone else. Differences are what tell you they're different people.
    Actual Lincoln has thick, dark, arched eyebrows. Impostor Lincoln has thin or pale eyebrows.
    Actual Lincoln has sharp cheekbones. Impostor Lincoln has flat cheekbones.
    Actual Lincoln has a "Roman" nose, arching slightly outward. Impostor Lincoln has a slightly sloped "ski" nose.
    Actual Lincoln has a sharply defined bit of meat -- the superior labial tubercle -- centered on his upper lip. Impostor Lincoln does not.
    Actual Lincoln has a thick lower lip extending the width of his mouth. Impostor Lincoln does not.
    Actual Lincoln has a diagnostic, prominent mole on his right nasolabial furrow ("smile line"). Impostor Lincoln does not.
    Actual Lincoln's nasolabial furrows run close to his mouth angle furrows -- the corners of his mouth. Impostor Lincoln's nasolabial furrows run farther away from the corners of his mouth.
    Actual Lincoln has a broad unmarked chin. Impostor Lincoln appears to have a dimple on his chin.
    Pay attention now, because this last thing is definitive. Ears are diagnostic. They're like fingerprints. Even if every other feature matched perfectly, even if most other features maybe just kinda matched pretty well, if the ears don't match, you've got different people. Ask your nearest FBI or Interpol facial recognition specialist.
    Actual Lincoln has pendulous earlobes. Impostor Lincoln has short, tight-fitting earlobes.
    Impostor Lincoln, him not Lincoln.
     
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  16. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

  17. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    @Joseph Mason,

    Regarding the inaugural gown - if you are correct about the photograph having been taken in early 1862, this does not preclude Mrs. Lincoln having posed for a formal portrait in her inaugural gown at a later date. As to the color, the chemicals used in collodion wet plate photography were not equally sensitive to all colors. Blue objects "can show up anywhere from white to varying shades of gray depending on the shade of blue or violet, with the lighter shades being almost white in the photograph". (http://www.raggedsoldier.com/photo_article.pdf)
    The dress in the photograph may in fact be blue, but appears white due to the photographic process used. Perhaps you did not know this fact about the history of photography.

    The two gowns I cited do show the type of style Mary Lincoln wore in the early 1860's - clearly not the same style worn by the woman in your daguerreotype. But if someone cannot distinguish faces, it might be difficult to recognize differences in fashion as well.

    I note you do not address my specific points about the age of the daguerreotype, except to disparage my familiarity with the subject.

    Nor do you address the issue of the beard line, clearly demonstrated in @BaseballGames post.

    I, too, have a dictionary.
    Delusion: a false, persistent belief not substantiated by sensory evidence.
     
  18. Darkwing Manor

    Darkwing Manor Well-Known Member

    I agree.
     
  19. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    I now agree also..........cuz I'm gettin schooled here...which is good !!!
     
  20. Darkwing Manor

    Darkwing Manor Well-Known Member

     
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