Carved pricket candlestick

Discussion in 'Furniture' started by Matt Johnson, Jul 16, 2020.

  1. Matt Johnson

    Matt Johnson Member

    I have these two beautiful pricket candlesticks. They were originally bought as lamps but I'm using them for candles. They are pretty big, ove 1 meter each.
    received_2502702246499222.jpeg
    Gilded with gold leaf. Someone has repainted the white parts, since they forgot (or saw no point?) In painting the bottom of the tray.
    received_278073843456370.jpeg

    received_571702840182687.jpeg

    I believe they were used in a church a while ago since they have a light frankincense smell.

    I'd like to know when and where they were made, any thoughts?
     
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  2. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Yes, these are typical church and monastery candlesticks, and they usually came in pairs for either side of an altar. They are 19th century. Where did you buy them?
    I hope you will find someone who can restore them.
     
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  3. Matt Johnson

    Matt Johnson Member

    A nearby flea market. It was kind of cheap-ish, about 50-60€ each.
    Can you perhaps tell if they are early, mid or late 19th century?
     
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  4. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    I meant, which country.:)
     
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  5. Matt Johnson

    Matt Johnson Member

    Hungary, my home country. I usually buy all my stuff from a nearby flea markets or a local version of eBay. Never directly from abroad.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  6. Adrian Lewis

    Adrian Lewis Journeyman

    These are typical Frech style church/alltar floor pricket sticks, complete with carved fleur-de-lys at the bottom.
     
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  7. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    These were made throughout Western and central Europe. And remember, these were made for religious institutions, not for state political reasons.;) The flower isn't a French style fleur-de-lys, but a lily for purity, also symbol of the virgin Mary and of Joseph:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    There are different types of fleur-de-lys types, in different parts of Europe, the oldest one is probably the Florentine giglio.
    French heraldic fleur-de-lys, always with the horizontal band across the three petals, preferably gold on blue (this one is on white):
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  8. Adrian Lewis

    Adrian Lewis Journeyman

    I respect your opinion but having lived in France for a number of years, I beg to differ. A 19thC French provincial carver, or even his apprentice, would have been carving from memory of probably the very few times if at all, they had seen a heraldic depiction of a fleur-de-lys. The two lower shoulders complete the cross bar depiction.
     
  9. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    I am not seeing those, do you mean the lower part of the raised cartouche that ends in the curls on the feet?
     
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  10. Adrian Lewis

    Adrian Lewis Journeyman

    By the 'curls on the feet' I take it you mean the scroll-work. These were simple provincial carpenters/amateur carvers. Outlined in red at the bottom is what I see as an interpretation of the heraldic bar you mention. At the top also outlined in red you can see the finish on the sholders above the scroll-work. These were indeed not made by a master carver or anywhere near so expecting a heraldic depiction of the fleur-de-lys I would say was reaching.

    upload_2020-7-19_23-5-7.png
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  11. Matt Johnson

    Matt Johnson Member

    Interesting point! Never saw them as a felur-de-lys carving, more like a simple acanthus leaf which you can find on most antique furniture.
    There are three such carvings, one of each site, one thinner or thicker than the other. I can post more pictures tomorrow.
     
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  12. Matt Johnson

    Matt Johnson Member

    I was curious about the construction so I used a little force to break the glue and... well this doesn't seem very antique to me received_334986984562965.jpeg received_1041439699608591.jpeg
     
  13. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Yep. Couldn't find the word, when I am tired there are too many languages competing for prime position inside my head.
    You've got to admit, not really a bar, is it.;)
    I am sorry, I have been doing my best to see it your way, but I know too much about French provincial life through family etc to believe a French provincial carver had no clue what a French fleur-de-lys looked like. He would only have had to visit the local mairie once, for his marriage or to declare the birth of his child etc, to have seen a fleur-de-lys. Besides, even provincial carvers worked with pattern books. They may not have lived in cosmopolitan cities, but they weren't ignorant.

    Another thing is that these are found in all Roman Catholic regions in the world. With symbols like the Madonna lily, an angel's head, other imagery, or with no decoration at all. They were cast in metal or carved from wood.
    Are you trying to say that French provincial carvers made and exported them all over the world, putting local craftspeople out of a job? Surely in all these countries and regions it would have made far more sense, and be much cheaper, to commission them from local craftspeople or workshops?
    I have personally seen them around the world, and also saw them in Hungary when I visited churches etc as a theology student. One of my special interests during my study was religious semiotics through symbolism.

    Just an example: Base of a brass Dinanderie church candlestick, with a stylised lily. The three petals/leaves symbolise the Holy Trinity. Not unlike the Hungarian candlestick, but you've got to admit, no resemblance with a French fleur-de-lys.;)
    As you can see, the casting of this Dinanderie ware, and the crown between the base and the body of the candlestick, are just as crude as the carving on the Hungarian candlestick.

    2318-Antieke-kerkkandelaar-2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  14. Adrian Lewis

    Adrian Lewis Journeyman

    I didn´t expound the prickets in the OP were solely French, I said they were typically French as found by me in my years living in France and also in Britain in the antiques trade over many years.
    Your lillies look nothing like the carving at the base of the OPs pricket sticks and are reasonably definitive as such IMO.
    Yes, as has been said, the tri-footed base was a European wide ecclesiastical concept in candlestick making but I was making a judgement based on pieces I have seen, handled, bought and sold....but I'm not going to fall out with you over a different perspective on symbolic interpretation as you are obviously schooled in the theory of such. I can only go by first hand experience.;)
     
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  15. Ghopper1924

    Ghopper1924 Well-Known Member

    You're right....not very antique at all. Well done!
     
    Matt Johnson likes this.
  16. Matt Johnson

    Matt Johnson Member

    Yeah. Bit it's still a nice, decorative piece so I don't mind
     
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