Featured Copyright question about old poems etc.

Hi, it's a while since I last posted, where does the time go???!

I bought a bunch of ephemera off flea-bay, including a dozen or so type written pages - one is dated 1920 and a few others have the name of the author/signature. They were written by English author James Reginald Wilmot, who also used the pseudonym Ralph Trevor. I've found some information about him on the web. He died 1944.

As far as I can tell, these pages are unpublished. I'd like to share them.... but as far as I can make out, under UK law they are still in copyright until 2039?! Is this correct??? I've been referring to the flow chart towards the end of this document... http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/copyright-related-rights.pdf

So, is there anything I can do with them, apart from file them and wait? Thing is, the seller on eBay took fairly clear photos of them, so wouldn't that have counted as 'publication'? Am I just worrying too much?

Here's a (hopefully allowable!) photo I've taken. The postcard has 'Hungarian Frontier' written on the back, and has a 'K Ltd' stamp box dating it to around 1918 - 1936:

 

Copyright questions can be very complicated. And I am more familiar with USA law, so don't know how to advise you. One question: you wrote that you want to "share" them. In what way do you want to do that? That would make a difference.

Oh, and, IMO, a listing on eBay would not constitute publication for purposes of copyright law. I say even that with the caveat that I am not trained in legal matters. I am just a librarian in the USA who is sometimes asked about these sorts of matters.

 

Many thanks, Fig . Copyright ties me in knots sometimes... as you say, it's all so complicated, especially now we have the internet.

I have a blog where I share images, and thought I might share this poetry/writing too, in the interest of social/family history and the artistic value of the work. Not commercial, of course. Some of the writing is very lovely indeed; some poignant words that I think were written just after WWI, and romantic poems too. It would be nice to share and discuss with others! What about forums? Would that be considered publication?

What really saddens me is that this work has been sold and re-sold already. I've made some effort to find the author's family but no luck so far. The seller on eBay told me it came from a house clearance sale. Sigh!

 

I think that putting it publicly online more permanently might possibly constitute publication, but I'm very much not sure. I do know that at the university where I work, faculty are not allowed to take pdfs of published journal articles that are copyrighted by somebody else and post them on their websites. However, your situation is so different than that that it doesn't apply.

 

That's also what I was thinking .

It's a shame really, and I've read there was a review of the rules a few years ago but no changes were made. Apparently a lot of museums here have piles of papers that they cannot share with the public under the '2039' copyright law, not even to display them in the museum. Frustrating, but rules are there for a reason, I guess...

 

I concur.
And even so I think it likely you'd get a cease and desist order first.

 

Interesting conversation.....!

PS..I always thought writings could be "used" (in a non profit situation) if proper credit was given.

 

daveydempsey and Kingofthings, thanks... I like the way you think! The point about the original (copyright) owners having disposed of them is a good one.

janettekay, this would seem the most sensible solution to me. It's all very complicated!

 

Thanks!
However.....you may have to prove they were theirs and weren't stolen....

 

Dunno about now, but for years, in the U.S.A., "fair use" (term of art) existed - which meant that a limited amount of material could be quoted/used in another's work.
Complicated indeed.

 

Fair use still exists... it's for a portion of a work, not the entire thing. This situation seems more complicated because the work was not published. As others have said, it may not really be a big deal. But I don't know the answers!

And I believe that "fair use" is a concept in US copyright law. It might not exist in British law (that this thread should be discussing).

Here's what the US Copyright Office says about fair use: it's a good explanation of the legal aspects of it, and what courts look for if something is taken to court. https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html

 

Maybe you won't know until you get sued by the estate. I've seen that happen locally when someone thought a simple purchase negated a claim by an estate. The fact that he's not a very well-known writer doesn't help. Sometimes those are the ones who are most vulnerable to a claim by the estate simply because they didn't leave much of value and the heirs are looking to pick up whatever they can. I think if you bought it in good faith, you would be okay. It's not the claim on the income that would hurt - it's the legal costs you'd have to pay if they won. I'm probably making a mountain out of a molehill, but it's something to consider.

We had a breakfast restaurant in Brewster for several years called Breakfast of Champions. At some point, someone alerted the Vonnegut estate and they were sued and had to close down because they couldn't afford the court costs and stay open. Same thing with Gepetto's restaurant in Provincetown. Disney got wind of it and that was the end.

 

I won't buy Llttle Caesar's pizza because they tried to force a friend's Dad to change the name of his shop....
Problem was.....
His shop existed long before them so he told them to pack dough!

 

" pack dough "
not an expression I'm familiar with......
please explain......

 

Ha!!!!!
You have to experience this for yourself.
I guarantee you'll get a rise out of it though.

 

Sorry, but that is not correct. Copyright in a poem or other art work is distinct from ownership of the item itself.
Simplest example: I buy a piece of published sheet music, or a Disney watch; that doesn't make me the copyright owner. If I buy an original painting, that doesn't make me the copyright owner, which would give me the right to reproduce the art. That right remains with the creator, and is not sold with the art itself, unless there is a separate document dealing with the sale of the copyright.
A common example comes from limited edition prints; the copyright to the art remains with the creator, and is not sold along with any of the copies; it is not sold if the artist sells his artist's proofs, and is not sold even if he sells the original painting itself.
Copyright for any original art belongs to the creator or his heirs from the moment of creation, whether that copyright is registered or not (though enforcement is vastly easier if the copyright is registered).
So, the heirs can sell the original manuscripts of a poem; they are legally just pieces of paper with words on them. The copyright, and thus the right to publish or reproduce the poetry, remains with the heirs. I'm speaking only of the legal situation; enforcement of a copyright can be a different kettle of fish.
I'd expect that a logical extension of those principles would be that sale of the manuscripts on ebay does not in any way transfer the copyrights, and I'd guess that it does not legally constitute publication.

Generally, in the US, copyrights for items created up to around 1929 have expired, and the rights have fallen into the public domain. For anything after that date (which is approximate) someone likely still owns the copyright. (Something I've learned from researching musical copyrights.)

 

Somewhat different, certainly; and in any country enforcement depends on the filing of a lawsuit, and then on the court's determination of who owns what.
In my own research I tried to make sure that in any publication of my own music, or use of the music of others, I accounted for copyrights in all countries, as I didn't want to violate UK copyrights while complying with US laws, nor to leave my own works open to foreign use.
There is a considerable amount of material available regarding copyrights online, and anyone can fairly easily research the various nuances and differences between countries.

 

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this thread... it certainly is a mind-bender, isn't it?

Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate your in-depth knowledge, all_fakes, and your link, Fig.

Bev, we're thinking along the same lines. It seems to come down to someone (a descendent/copyright owner) seeing the poetry on the web and being bothered enough to sue under copyright law. Am I prepared to take that risk? Probably not, all things considered, even thought the risk in reality is likely to be low. As I said earlier, it's just a shame, because the writing is too good to be hidden away.

In the UK 'fair use' is known as 'fair dealing' and the restrictions seem to be even tighter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing_in_United_Kingdom_law. I could possibly apply the 'criticism or review' exception to the copyright and claim that the work had previously been made available on eBay! But it's complicated... I'm sure the only people to win in situations like these are the legal people...

Oh well.

On the plus side, the postcards that came with the writings are out of copyright as of last year! And I'm enjoying researching them