Featured Delft dish (oldie)

Discussion in 'Pottery, Glass, and Porcelain' started by blooey, Oct 10, 2019.

  1. blooey

    blooey Well-Known Member

    Some of my favourite things are old plates and bowls - this one came in trade a couple of days ago - ready to hang in my kitchen with a nice old metal hanger already in place!

    This one isn't too big, just 6-1/2" (16cm) dia. No mark but IMHO definitely a piece from the Netherlands. More of a bowl than a plate, about an inch or so deep.

    delft.jpg

    delft_r.jpg

    The red spot was just some wax, it just flaked off.
     
  2. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

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  3. blooey

    blooey Well-Known Member

    Interesting you'd think that!
    I don't know how much of this stuff you've handled, but in my experience, ...it looks VERY Dutch!
    One of the distinguishing features of Dutch tin glazed earthenware as compared to English productions is that the English rarely, if ever, used a clear overglaze while the Dutch always did. This piece definitely has that clear overglaze. I'm really tugging at my old memory strings now but I *think* the term for the clear overglaze was 'kvaart' or something like that?
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  4. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Did you look at the examples on the site I posted? It is in Dutch, but the dates are universal.:) Early Delfts is very Chinese inspired.
    Some examples, both of these are 17th century Delfts:
    [​IMG]
    https://www.de-delftse-pioen.nl/a-5...e-chinoiserie-schotel-van-40-cm-ca-1680-1700/

    [​IMG]
    https://www.de-delftse-pioen.nl/a-5...e-en-18e-eeuw/delftse-plooischotel-1650-1700/

    Remember, most of the western half of Europe (including part of Central Europe) was producing 'delftware' at the time. So there are many options, not just the Low Countries and England.
    The bold design could be from further south (and this is another time I really miss Walter).

    Just a thought, have you looked at older faience? Pre-Delfts Blue?
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
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  5. blooey

    blooey Well-Known Member

    I never thought it was 17th century! What gave you that impression?
    More like 18thc., And pretty typical IMHO.
     
  6. blooey

    blooey Well-Known Member

  7. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Doesn't ring any Delfts bells with me, sorry. Could it be from another region in the (former) Netherlands?
    Although 18th century Delfts often has less subtle shading than 17th century, I have never seen a piece with a bold design like this. I may have led a sheltered life.;)

    Some 18th century Delfts floral pieces:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Not strictly floral, the famous peacocktail plate, of which many were made:
    [​IMG]

    Very different, but still Delfts, with a late 18th century Porceleyne Bijl mark:
    [​IMG]

    From the Rijksmuseum collection, so no risk of seller's fibs. Not that I am saying the others I posted don't know their Delfts, they certainly do. Also late 18th:
    [​IMG]
    https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/rijksstudio/59326--rijksmuseum-medialab/verzamelingen/delfts-blauw
    Ah, my idea of an oldie when it comes to Delfts, I guess.:playful:
    Anyway, I think your plate is really nice, just a mystery to me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
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  8. Silver Wolf

    Silver Wolf Well-Known Member

    i'm not familiar with delft,but seeing the base make me remember about period of ming swatow base plate with little nicks in some point,it could be somewhere 17-18th century,err older than 18th imho...:rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
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  9. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    It certainly has an older look. But about the nicks, European wares of the earlier periods are earthenware, 'regular' pottery, so baked at a lower temperature than porcelain or stoneware. It is more susceptible to nicks and chipping.
     
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  10. Silver Wolf

    Silver Wolf Well-Known Member

    yeah seeing the base rim that thick just make me remember about ming swatow era,so maybe this plate should be around the same date of late ming to early qing 17th century,maybe i'm too much seeing chinese plate :shifty::shifty:
     
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  11. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    I blame the Chinese.:hilarious:
     
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  12. Silver Wolf

    Silver Wolf Well-Known Member

    lately i've been into this ancient chinese ceramics aj!i studying it day and night here,even it goes further into my dream,so everything looks like chinese now in my eyes:blackeye::blackeye::blackeye:
     
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  13. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Those must be beautiful dreams, have you gone back as far as the Neolithic Period yet? Truly stunning:

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Silver Wolf

    Silver Wolf Well-Known Member

    haha not yet..it lacks the item here if going back to neolithic period,even for 1000 years back i have difficult time to spare the original from the fake,:hilarious::hilarious::hilarious:
     
  15. say_it_slowly

    say_it_slowly The worst prison is a closed heart

    It's funny, my first reaction to your plate was Dutch 19th C. Then I asked myself why. I have quite a bit of old Dutch and English delftware as I have a special softness for it. Anyway, looked over my pieces without finding a matching pattern and then flipped through some books without luck.

    What I did find in my stash was a plate I've never researched. It's quite different than most of the pieces I have and I don't know what to make of it.

    I purchased it 18 years ago from a rather knowledgeable seller in Amsterdam. The seller believed this was Dutch from the second half of the 18th C. I don't really know where it came from.

    It has some elements of yours so thought I'd show it. It is 8¾" dia. so larger and the pattern is quite different. It does have the yellow edge (which I've read helped hide the edge chips). Yours looks to me that it has a more dense body than some delftware as does this plate. The cobalt is quite thick. Much Dutch delftware is well marked though yours and mine are not.

    plate front edit2.jpg plate back edit.jpg
     
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  16. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    It is a lovely plate, s-i-s, and it could have the same origin as blooey's plate.
    As you know the Netherlands had a lot of ceramics manufacturers, spread all over the country, including present-day Belgium. So finding the origin could be like a needle in a haystack.;)
    If these are Dutch, I have no idea in which of town or region they were made. I thought maybe Tegelen, in the province of Limburg, which has always manufactured more rustic ware, in different styles. But I have found no evidence so far, but maybe it is of help to you. Many Tegelen plates have that relief effect of the decoration which your plate has.
    Limburg is in the southeast of the Netherlands, and Tegelen wares show both Dutch and German Rhineland influences.
     
  17. blooey

    blooey Well-Known Member

    Well I hate to suggest it, but maybe you have led a sheltered life ...:blackeye:

    Those examples you keep posting are beautiful - and of course, top of the tree and the best examples of their type. What you are not necessarily taking into consideration is that even though the important and prolific workshops made these pieces, lesser potteries existed too.

    Not everyone lived in the cities and could afford to buy the best - even in the old days there were workshops catering to less affluent folks who also needed plates - just like today. Not everyone eats off fine bone china.

    The design is bold? Yes. Quickly applied and mass-produced to a price point? Yes.

    Similar to my Wanli Ming charger, this plate was not made for a rich merchant, but for the common folk. The "traditional" vase of flowers motif, (originally an oriental design element) has been reduced to a simplified form but still retains it's basic composition - a central flower in full bloom flanked by smaller flowers in a ribbed vase.

    I realize you do not want to be convinced the plate is Dutch, but this same bold motif with the same basic form is commonly found on old Dutch tiles, e.g. the top line of tiles on the page linked below. If you scroll even further down you will also see other interpretations of the design with varying degrees of simplification:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=ant...n0KHR6hCngQrnZ6BAgBEBM&biw=1343&bih=733&dpr=1
     
  18. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    No, not the best, they are just like the Delfts blue I saw every time I went to our local auction house. Delfts blue was bought by those who could afford it, others bought other wares, if they could.
    I think you missed my last post, in which I mentioned the following:
    I have been trying to help, including suggesting it could be Tegels (from Tegelen), which is Dutch. Not all Dutch ceramics are Delfts, and many made Dutch blue and white tiles. The floral motif on many of those tiles is inspired by Iberian azulejos, not Chinese porcelain. The country was full of ceramics manufacturing centres, north to south, east to west.

    You are turning this into a very personal thing, just like in the bronze censer thread with your replies to Holly's posts which were never intended as a personal attack on you. I didn't say anything negative about you, or your plate. People have been commenting on your attitude though.
    I will leave you to it, and hope s-i-s will find the origin of both your plates.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
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  19. blooey

    blooey Well-Known Member

    Well you seem to insist on being right, I have just tried to sprinkle a few seeds of doubt about your assertions, that's all. Nothing personal in my mind, simply an academic argument.

    And just to clarify, I posted this plate as an example of Dutch delftware - not as a piece specifically produced anywhere in a particular region of the Netherlands and certainly not as a definitive production from the city of Delft.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delftware
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
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