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Featured Ground find from china

Discussion in 'Antique Discussion' started by hunt2, Jun 4, 2025.

  1. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Chinese authorities are very firm when it comes to things like that. I think I have heard of other instances where someone got the death sentence for dealing in national treasures.
    But @shamster probably knows for sure. Not that I would ever think of accusing her of illegal trafficking, just that she may have heard.:nailbiting::playful:
     
  2. bosko69

    bosko69 Well-Known Member

    But you also buy one other invaluable thing Hunt-knowledge ! Think of it as real world tuition.
     
  3. mirana

    mirana Well-Known Member

    Exactly all of this!! I would never touch "antiquities" from China or most anywhere else as countries are very protective (RIGHTFUL SO!) of their cultural arts and artifacts. I remember reading major articles in the 90s about the plague of grave robbers stealing things and blackmarket selling. Of course that's existed forever, but I mean to say.... Even if you found a real object, it is tainted.

    Also verdigris is very easily created with vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, etc. Objects with "dirt" and whatnot still on them are especially suspect.... Especially "dirt" like verdigris that wouldn't form on glass...
     
  4. hunt2

    hunt2 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for all the info, valueble leson learned no more chinese stuff or are 18th/19th chinese vases safe because they sell like hotcakes.
     
    kyratango likes this.
  5. bosko69

    bosko69 Well-Known Member

    The question that's always bugged me is-where exactly do the respected and supposedly 'vetted' auction houses really get their antiquities from,that they seem to sell with international legal approval ?
    PS-And how much forged paperwork and provenance is involved ?
     
  6. bosko69

    bosko69 Well-Known Member

    *You can buy superbly made Chinese replicas of these ancient pieces artisanally created by their descendants marked as repros- legally, and many of them look & feel incredible !
     
    mirana likes this.
  7. mirana

    mirana Well-Known Member

    China generally restricts export of anything before a certain date, and domestic trade is restricted in certain cases (ie archeological sources). So if it's an auction house outside of China, then the provenance would have to show a sale before those laws were in place. Even so, China pursues repatriation and certain Chinese ultra-rich will buy things to return them to China.

    A site with more info on restrictions.

    China is of course not the only country that does this.
     
    kyratango and Any Jewelry like this.
  8. mmarco102

    mmarco102 Well-Known Member

    I wouldn’t go so far as to say that. At this day and age, thousands of Chinese, “made for exports” are, antiques, and are spread throughout the world. I’ve had my share of buying the good bad and ugly. Thanks to the help of many online including a lot on this venue I have educated myself. My best lessons have come from visiting museums, But you still may come across fakes in those locations,
     
  9. bosko69

    bosko69 Well-Known Member

    I've even read a mention of Chinese Oligarchs hiring criminal elements to repatriate certain items-who knows ?
     
    mirana likes this.
  10. shamster

    shamster Well-Known Member

    lol I have never had experience with exporting Chinese antiques, but ‘importing’ European antiques as my souvenirs :p But law did state that any pre-1949 artifacts cannot be exported, the punishment may depend on how important the stuff is. Tho I doubt the customs will bother with cheap ancient coins or similar. And they also restrict export of non- Chinese antiques from China. So yes, most genuine Chinese antiques found in western are either old exports during Qing dynasty, or ‘traded’ before, sometimes without consent :wacky:
     
  11. shamster

    shamster Well-Known Member

    This reminds me of some village in central China where you can literally pick 2000 years old carved bricks like berries… but no one bothering collecting them and selling as they have minimum value on market, tho some would fit them in their houses as an ordinary bricks.
     
  12. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Similar things have happened here too, for instance this church was built on a foundation of megaliths taken from a nearby Stone Age monument:

    Borger.jpg

    And most of our old and beautiful manmade mounds in the north of the country were dug out to use the fertile soil for the tulip fields in Holland, in the west. The houses and Medieval churches on the mounds were demolished.:(

    The mounds were once constructed by hand so people could build their houses on higher, dry ground in the marsh and sea areas that used to make up much of the Netherlands. They were the start of Dutch culture, but no one cared in the 19th century. Especially if it was for the benefit of Holland, the dominant part of the country.
    The irony of the story is that the many low lying areas will need constructions like that in future, with rising sea levels. Parts of the north and west of the country are already below sea level.

    One of the historic mounds that still exists, with its Medieval saddle-roof church, this one is in Friesland:

    aterp.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2025
  13. J Dagger

    J Dagger Well-Known Member

    Many of the Native American mounds in the U.S. were destroyed by farmers. Some looted first.

    I’d think 99% of anything and everything found in Chinese junk shops is a repro or literal junk. I did see someone on antiques roadshow once who did happen to buy some real treasures at Chinese junk shops but most of it I’ve seen is meant to deceive. That guy bought scroll weights if I recall correctly. You can look as close as eBay to see the massive, extraordinary amount of fake antiques and antiquities being sold out of China. The vast majority of Chinese “antiques” on eBay are fake. Chinese export porcelain is relatively safe to buy and relatively abundant. I hear they are even faking that a bit now though. The Chinese domestic market has started to appreciate the high quality of much early export porcelain and has begun buying it. Which leads to fakes. I’ve heard that the artists who decorated porcelain were paid more for working on export wares than they made on domestic and imperial wares. That partially explains the superb quality of the decoration on some 17th and 18th c. export wares.

    Edit: the North American mound builders built on the most fertile American farmland. In the Midwest river regions. That’s what supported the large cities that formed in their cultures. Relatively large scale agriculture that is. Not needing to spend all your time hunting and gathering led to time that could be dedicated to artistic and more architectural endeavors. They find some pretty spectacular artwork in those mounds. They weren’t savages it turns out, pretty sophisticated cultures those mound builders developed. It’s also what attracted the farmers and caused them to want big flat crop fields. They used the mounds for fill too I think.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2025
    kentworld, Any Jewelry and mirana like this.
  14. J Dagger

    J Dagger Well-Known Member

    Just as a side note Thailand produces an insane amount of fake antiquities as well. They do a pretty good job on some. I think they may actually bury some stuff to make it look convincing. I’m sure they are good at artificial patination too.
     
    Any Jewelry likes this.
  15. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Yes, they do, mostly ceramics. They even make excellent copies of Jingdezhen porcelain.
    A very old fakers' trick.
     
    J Dagger, komokwa and kentworld like this.
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