Featured Guess the value.

On Saturday, (tomorrow) two interesting items from the Manchester Hoard are up for auction.

One is the pre-Columbian whistling vessel and the other is a probably 12th or 13th C. framed document conveying land.

Auction estimate is about £100 to £150 on each item, but no one has any real idea due to lack of comparables.

Here are som pictures. Anyone care to venture a guess what the actual bid prices will be? Bear in mind that a 20% buyer's premium applies.







I have shown the Peruvian vessel to the curator of this kind of stuff at the Birmingham art gallery, he thinks it is genuine and fairly good of its type.

The deed is in a frame from the late 19th C, the size is about 14 by 10 inches, the framer's stamp is on the back (rather faint).

Expert opinions to WAGs welcome, I will know the answer by 3 pm GMT.

 

http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/auctions/107/COL

Face palm, and well Duh! as they say.

Lot 541 and 542 are my lots but 541 is not supposed to look like this.



They have goofed severely and put in the picture of another of my items, so I have said withdraw it. Lucky I looked through the lots online and spotted it.

So guesses only apply to the document. I have left the other text and pictures as a horrible example of what can go wrong at the most respectable of auction rooms.

 

Why was King John "temp"?

I wonder whether there is anyway to identify the current location of that land?

Davey - why only 58 pounds?

 

Oh, wow, AF, sorry!
I don't have any ideas about the document... but that vessel really knocks me out. If I saw it up close and still loved it, and had some disposable vacation-cash, and if I had had a Margarita or two... I would happily bid 750 USD or more (if additional Margaritas).

 

Thanks, Davey.

 

Time of King John. The writing at the bottom is a 19th C summary of the the document. I googled all over the place trying to find any mention of any one or any place with no luck whatsoever. It is British as I found mention of payment in sterling in the original Norman French. It is a bit tricky to read the typical scribe's hand, and translate to modern English.

The only thing I am sure of is that it is genuine.

 

It was hard enough to try to decode the script in my English 3X great grandfather's will from the 1830's. Add in a different language and OY!

 

The more you see the easier it gets. It would in fact be harder to read in what passed for English at the time.

 

I found this in an 1863 catalogue in Google Books. I haven't compared every word of the document, but the words appear to be the same as the caption somebody wrote under your framed item. If this is the same document, perhaps this 1863 book could help with provenance?

https://books.google.com/books?id=z...AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=hamo son of etard&f=false

 

I am finding this document mentioned in later publications, too. Could there be more than one copy?

 

Hi,
I have an 1840 sale and transfer of property from England. It has been in the family folded up. I had it archivally mounted in the 1980's and it cost 250 dollars.
I had it professionally looked at to get a value. It cost 300 dollars for the valuation and the 250 dollars for the framing. the total value for the piece of parchment was 35 dollars.
greg

 

Could be that the document was sold and framed after the exhibition, which was only a temporary exhibition, not a permanent affair like a museum.

 

I also have found mention of this document as well as Crèvécoeur histories. According to the following ownership history of Leeds Castle in Kent, Hamo and his father Etard held Leeds Castle from 1090-1119. After them came other Crèvécoeurs such as Robert, Daniel....http://www.ourfamtree.org/location.php/state/England/county/Kent/city/Leeds-Castle/id/361

Here is a later history of the family, Hamo de Crèvécoeur, aka spelt as Cricuequoer/Crievecoeur/. In the genealogical chart/pedigree (page 2) it mentions Robert, Daniel, etc. who were listed as holding Leeds Castle from 1119 to c1268 in the above Leeds Castle history.
http://www.kentarchaeology.ac/digiarchive/ColinFlight/crevequer-fall.pdf

It seems Lady Maria (2nd wife of Etard de Crèvécoeur) was Hamo's step mother. Hamo and his step-mother Maria may have had land issues?
Page 33, #80 at the bottom of the page:
https://books.google.com/books?id=a...EIHjAA#v=onepage&q=Etard de Crevequer&f=false

--- Susan

 

Better research than I was able to manage. Looks like the date was about right, and some one or two people fancied it because the winning bid was £420, about $650 or so.

So in the end, the buyer will be paying about £500 with the buyers premium, and I will get about £380. This is about £300 more than I would have asked for it at an antiques fair, and probably had no takers at that, so I don't begrudge the magnitude of the auction fees, although I am a bit annoyed about them messing up the Chimu vessel sale.

Greg, I am sorry to hear about your document, but I think you were screwed by the valuer, anyone with any ethics would have told you informally that the thing was not worth engendering that kind of a fee. Normally valuers charge a very small percentage of the valuation amount, looks like you fell foul of some 'minimum charge' term.

 

Great finish, AF!

 

Fabulous! I'm glad that it was worth your while to sell the document this way. Sorry about the Chimu vessel.