Featured Help Id and date an old big oriental vase, signed

Discussion in 'Pottery, Glass, and Porcelain' started by Gianluca72, Aug 30, 2018.

  1. Gianluca72

    Gianluca72 Well-Known Member

    Hello,

    i would love to Identify and date this old big oriental vase,
    trimmed with gold, Samurai paintings, height 47 cm, amazing.
    Signed on the bottom .
    Please check the photos, i really appreciate every help,
    because i don't have expertise with Asian art,
    all comments are welcome

    Thanks in advance for your time

    Gianluca

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  2. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Hello Gianluca. It is Japanese, made in the Satsuma style.
    This is something I don't know much about, so I leave that to others more knowledgeable on the subject.:)
     
  3. Figtree3

    Figtree3 What would you do if you weren't afraid?

    Oh, I love that! I don't know anything about that, either.
     
  4. clutteredcloset49

    clutteredcloset49 Well-Known Member

    I would guess it to be late 1800s pre 1891.
    Agree with the Satsuma style.
    There is a lot going on with this vase! Warriors and flowers!
    Enamel painted, not moriage.

    You might look here for the mark
    http://gotheborg.com/marks/satsuma.shtml
     
  5. Gianluca72

    Gianluca72 Well-Known Member

    Many thanks for the info,
    i have checked the link of gotheborg, but i did not find that Sign unfortunately :-(

    Is it not moriage ? Which technique could it be ? :-/

    Yes Warriors and flowers ... it's a nice contrast, it's amazing to understand the meaning :)
     
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  6. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    "Moriage" refers to a technique of raised decoration, created by applying a thick slip or applying additional clay forms. It is often seen on Satsuma ware. So I think this would qualify as moriage technique.
    From Gotheborg:
    Moriage is a slip decoration of raised enamels. It occurs on Satsuma wares as early as circa 1890 but tends to be more carefully applied on early pieces. Moriage also seems to be limited to pieces made outside of the Satsuma domain while being typical for Kyoto Satsuma ware. Crudely applied moriage indicates a dating in the 20th century and was popular on true porcelain well into the 1950s. One of the more popular decorations in this manner is the well known Dragon Ware, where the slip decoration can be so generously applied as to look like cake frosting.
    http://gotheborg.com/glossary/satsuma.shtml
     
  7. Gianluca72

    Gianluca72 Well-Known Member

    So it's Moriage technique ...

    Ok but @clutteredcloset49 wrote no Moriage.. I got confused now.

    And then why pre 1891 ?

    Is this year a key date of the end of a specific period ?

    Thanks for the reply
     
  8. gregsglass

    gregsglass Well-Known Member

    Hi,
    Just to add it is either moriage or not. Raised dots of enamel is Just that. If it had areas of raised items such as dragons or such you could call it moriage. The raised dots which are just drops of enamel are NOT moriage or moriage style. In fact in all of the years that I have bought and sold Asian items I have never heard of moriage style. It is like saying Tiffany style.
    greg
     
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  9. i need help

    i need help Moderator Moderator

    When @Asian Fever is online, maybe she will have some input on mark.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
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  10. clutteredcloset49

    clutteredcloset49 Well-Known Member

    I'm in the US. 1891 was the year of the McKinley Act. Items being imported into the US had to have a country of origin. Yours does not say Japan or Nippon. After 1921 it had to say "Made In" and country of origin.

    Moriage is slip. Slip is clay and is not shiny. Enameled paint is shiny which is what I see on your vase.

    Moriage vs enamel paint has been an ongoing discussion both here and on the old ebay boards. I'm just following what others have said, so as not to cause problems.
     
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  11. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    It is my understanding that moriage is a method of decoration that can be applied to ceramics of various origins or styles. The term refers to applying a raised decoration on the ceramic, be it dots or lines or figures. It is not a style in itself, nor is it a place of origin. It is like "engraving", a method or technique that can be used to create a variety of styles of imagery. The technique was used on so-called dragonware to create the distinctive designs. This was just one application of the technique.
    From Kovels:
    Moriage is a special type of raised decoration used on some Japanese pottery. Sometimes pieces of clay were shaped by hand and applied to the item; sometimes the clay was squeezed from a tube in the way we apply cake frosting. One type of moriage is called Dragonware by collectors. Moriage pieces were often unmarked and were known for their highly stylized decorations and gilding.
    https://www.kovels.com/price-guide/pottery-porcelain-price-guide/moriage.html
     
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  12. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    Yes, the raised area would be created with slip which has sufficient body, and then painted with enamels, as the other decoration on the vase. The two are not mutually exclusive.
     
  13. clutteredcloset49

    clutteredcloset49 Well-Known Member

  14. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    Yes, slip is clay, and not shiny. Yes, enamels are shiny. Enamel can be painted over slip. Moriage refers to the raised character of the design, whether slip or enamel.
    Gotheberg's definition reflects this: "Moriage is a slip decoration of raised enamels."

    Just found a dictionary definition of the Japanese word "moriage" = "to pile up, to heap up".
    https://www.tanoshiijapanese.com/di...36469&element_id=48625&conjugation_type_id=75
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  15. patd8643

    patd8643 Well-Known Member

    There are a number of ebay listings misnamed as moriage.
    Dragon ware is usually a perfect example of moriage.
    Some sellers will argue to the end about it.
    Patd
     
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  16. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    I take your point, Patd. I am not familiar with the arguments on ebay. Clearly, I have wandered into dangerous territory. I come at it from a background in the history of technology. It is helpful to have clearly defined terms when trying to describe and understand objects.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
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  17. Gianluca72

    Gianluca72 Well-Known Member

    Thank you for your comments, we try to find a meeting point.

    I see a lot of bas-reliefs and decorations in gold,

    and I also see many slip decoration applied as to look like cake frosting,

    therefore painted with enamels

    and also a reference to the Dragon Ware style (but without dragons) = moriage.

    Am i wrong?

    "After 1921 it had to say" Made In "and country of origin."

    Ok so this it means that is pre 1921.

    One last aspect, which I believe can help to identify and date the vase better:

    I forgot to give you precise information, the origin:

    I bought this vase next an auction house in Rome, Italy.

    I do not therefore think that this is a product imported into the US,

    but an element exported from Japan to Europe.

    Also, I checked the signatures and Japanese Satsuma marks

    but unfortunately I could not find the one under my vase :-(

    I start to think that this is a shorthand signature made by the artist,

    but my ignorance about it does not allow me to determine what it is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
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  18. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    This is another ongoing discussion on the forum, and frankly I don't understand why.
    Items intended for the European market did not have to comply with the McKinley Act. After all, what was the McKinley Act to us? We had, and still have, our own laws and acts, and long may it stay that way.
    When production was as massive as Satsuma ware, items were produced and marked for different markets.
    Did some items intended for the US end up here? Sure they did, just like European and Asian migrants could take their belongings to the US without them being stamped with the country of origin.

    I seem to detect an Italianesque influence in the design and decoration of the vase, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was made specifically for the Italian market.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  19. Gianluca72

    Gianluca72 Well-Known Member

    Interesting your comment, and I'm agree with you
    What do you think about dating and technique ?
     
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  20. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    Sorry, I don't know. Japanese porcelain is not my forte. @Mat probably knows, but I think he hasn't been here for a while.
    He is Greek, btw, so no McKinley Act confusion.:D

    Edit: Mat just corrected me, he is not Greek.:banghead:
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
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