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Help with dating an old (I think!) oil maritime painting
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<p>[QUOTE="Dawnno, post: 593818, member: 10171"]this thread has me really intrigued: I had to find out about the red and blue sails...</p><p>so, this painting has two boats, each with red and blue, likely, sails, or maybe, a flag?, over the side.</p><p>[ATTACH=full]177022[/ATTACH]</p><p>then you see in the next one more fish sales going on with blue and red flags flying...</p><p>[ATTACH=full]177027[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>I'm finding this curiouser and curiouser, b/c I suspect it has something to do with letting everyone know you are available to sell your catch... something like that.</p><p><br /></p><p>And this painting shows the blue/white/red flag in Liverpool...</p><p>[ATTACH=full]177019[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>and this painting has both versions of the flag in it... attributed to "dutch school"</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]177026[/ATTACH]</p><p>Note the red jibs again. Jibs are commonly used without mainsails to navigate, so they do get more use. so, this is just a theory, maybe the blue sail was used to 'come into port with the catch' and it combined with the usual red only.</p><p><br /></p><p>A 1614 English account illustrates the efficiency and profitability of the Dutch herring business:</p><p><br /></p><p>“ The Hollanders do make both a profitable and a pleasant trade of this Summer fishing... and so they did set sail for the North seas ... where ... they had soon filled their Buss [ship] with herrings; and a Herring-Yager cometh unto them, and brings them gold and fresh supplies and copeth [<i>bargaineth</i>] with them, and taketh in their herrings for ready money, and delivereth them more barrels and salt; and away goeth the Yager for the first market into Sprucia [<i>Prussia</i>]. And still is the Buss fishing at sea, and soon after again was full laden and boone [<i>bound</i>] home: but then another Yager cometh unto him as did the former, and delivering them more provision of barrels, salt, and ready money, and bids them farewell. And ... they sailed home into Holland ... the Buss laden with herrings, and a thousand pounds of ready money"</p><p><br /></p><p>Then I find this: <a href="https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/nl-fshp.html#orig" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/nl-fshp.html#orig" rel="nofollow">https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/nl-fshp.html#orig</a></p><p>"An old tradition of <i>misuse of the Netherlands red-white-blue flag</i> has come to an end this year.[1966] When in the first days of May every year the fishermen had brought back from the North Sea the fresh salt herring -- "Dutch New Mates" -- <span style="color: #ff0000">for almost two centuries one could buy this sea-banquet in Western Europe at stands and shops decorated and indicated by a little Netherlands flag</span>. Too often these flags were shown day and night; and of course there was opposition because of the impropriety of using a national symbol for commercial purposes. The Foundation for Vexillology and Heraldry at Muidenberg every year tried to get the stands to stop using the national flag. Finally success has been met. Beginning in February 1966 the governmental organization for the promotion of fish-selling in the Netherlands has sanctioned a new flag for herring shops and stands."</p><p><br /></p><p>That's the story I think the painting is telling (row boats with barrels of salt (?) coming to the ship, and money) and so, maybe the <i>painting is English</i> of a vessel from a different port of call, e.g. Prussian bringing Atlantic herring, <i>or</i> a traditional misuse of the Dutch flag... maybe they flew them upside down to sell their catch? And any other combination of red and blue took hold to say "Fish for Sale."</p><p><br /></p><p>Just a theory. talk to a Dutch fish merchant historian.</p><p><br /></p><p>So cool.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Dawnno, post: 593818, member: 10171"]this thread has me really intrigued: I had to find out about the red and blue sails... so, this painting has two boats, each with red and blue, likely, sails, or maybe, a flag?, over the side. [ATTACH=full]177022[/ATTACH] then you see in the next one more fish sales going on with blue and red flags flying... [ATTACH=full]177027[/ATTACH] I'm finding this curiouser and curiouser, b/c I suspect it has something to do with letting everyone know you are available to sell your catch... something like that. And this painting shows the blue/white/red flag in Liverpool... [ATTACH=full]177019[/ATTACH] and this painting has both versions of the flag in it... attributed to "dutch school" [ATTACH=full]177026[/ATTACH] Note the red jibs again. Jibs are commonly used without mainsails to navigate, so they do get more use. so, this is just a theory, maybe the blue sail was used to 'come into port with the catch' and it combined with the usual red only. A 1614 English account illustrates the efficiency and profitability of the Dutch herring business: “ The Hollanders do make both a profitable and a pleasant trade of this Summer fishing... and so they did set sail for the North seas ... where ... they had soon filled their Buss [ship] with herrings; and a Herring-Yager cometh unto them, and brings them gold and fresh supplies and copeth [[I]bargaineth[/I]] with them, and taketh in their herrings for ready money, and delivereth them more barrels and salt; and away goeth the Yager for the first market into Sprucia [[I]Prussia[/I]]. And still is the Buss fishing at sea, and soon after again was full laden and boone [[I]bound[/I]] home: but then another Yager cometh unto him as did the former, and delivering them more provision of barrels, salt, and ready money, and bids them farewell. And ... they sailed home into Holland ... the Buss laden with herrings, and a thousand pounds of ready money" Then I find this: [URL]https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/nl-fshp.html#orig[/URL] "An old tradition of [I]misuse of the Netherlands red-white-blue flag[/I] has come to an end this year.[1966] When in the first days of May every year the fishermen had brought back from the North Sea the fresh salt herring -- "Dutch New Mates" -- [COLOR=#ff0000]for almost two centuries one could buy this sea-banquet in Western Europe at stands and shops decorated and indicated by a little Netherlands flag[/COLOR]. Too often these flags were shown day and night; and of course there was opposition because of the impropriety of using a national symbol for commercial purposes. The Foundation for Vexillology and Heraldry at Muidenberg every year tried to get the stands to stop using the national flag. Finally success has been met. Beginning in February 1966 the governmental organization for the promotion of fish-selling in the Netherlands has sanctioned a new flag for herring shops and stands." That's the story I think the painting is telling (row boats with barrels of salt (?) coming to the ship, and money) and so, maybe the [I]painting is English[/I] of a vessel from a different port of call, e.g. Prussian bringing Atlantic herring, [I]or[/I] a traditional misuse of the Dutch flag... maybe they flew them upside down to sell their catch? And any other combination of red and blue took hold to say "Fish for Sale." Just a theory. talk to a Dutch fish merchant historian. So cool.[/QUOTE]
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