Featured Ivory sign

Discussion in 'Art' started by Tristan334, Sep 28, 2022.

  1. Tristan334

    Tristan334 Member

    Hi everyone,

    Someone knows what or who is 'Seli .Fram'?

    It appears on an ivory triptych offered to me, on what appears to be a signature.

    My Google searches have been unsuccessful.

    I would appreciate any help.

    Best wishes!

    IMG_20220928_222748.jpg IMG_20220928_222722.jpg IMG_20220928_222844.jpg
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  2. all_fakes

    all_fakes Well-Known Member

    judy, KSW, charlie cheswick and 4 others like this.
  3. Debora

    Debora Well-Known Member

    The Seli. Fram pieces I find on the internet are described as marble, sometimes dyed.

    KSW, pearlsnblume and ulilwitch like this.
  4. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

  5. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    Pentatych..... = 5
  6. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

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  7. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    It's not funny if they're copied from the same primary image. I see this all the time with cameos. Wonder whether 'Seli. Fram' could have been a workshop rather than an individual.

    Here's another example of this kind of tabletop devotional piece, from the other end of the story:

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  8. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!


    exactly the same....

    @Tristan334 ....r u buying or selling ?????:meh:

    it helps to let us know this , before we spend our time on it.......:yawn:
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  9. Tristan334

    Tristan334 Member

    I am a collector of religious ivory pieces. I don’t sell.

    But it is clear that the salesman has sent me the same photos he has posted on that website.

    Anyway, I’m just asking if anyone knows what or who is Seli.Fram. That’s all. Any more.

    I apologize if, in spite of everything, someone feels has wasted his time. That was never my intention.
  10. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    I never said wasted......don't get defensive !

    When we start finding the same item on multiple sites it raises questions.....so it becomes important to know if the item is yours...or if a seller is offering it to you.
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  11. Debora

    Debora Well-Known Member

    Can't imagine what Seli. Fram abbreviates but, in bold caps, certainly doesn't look like an antique mark to my eye.

  12. all_fakes

    all_fakes Well-Known Member

    In spite of the appearance, I can't believe that any of these are either old, or actual carvings in either ivory or marble. This is not what a carved marble or ivory sculpture should look like; note the darker shaded areas are intended to give the appearance of age, but are too uniform; they have been applied everywhere there is a fold in the drapery, and in every groove or hollow.
    Another significant fact is that in the on-line examples above, sellers are unable to agree on what the material is; some calling it ivory, some calling it marble. But for an actual carving in ivory or marble, once you have it in hand, there can be no doubt. Ivory looks like ivory, has Schreger lines; marble looks like marble, has characteristic veining. None of the examples above, including in the original post, seem to have any of these details. They are just uniform in surface texture and shading.
    I think these are modern factory-made cast items, possibly slip-cast ceramic or resin; and if so, are modern decor items, not old religious carvings.
    Sorry to be such a skeptic.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
  13. all_fakes

    all_fakes Well-Known Member

    Compare the shading in the slip-cast ceramics below; they are not as sophisticated, and more glossy, than the seli.fram items; but note the uniformity of the shading. This is not the actual product of age, but an applied finish.
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  14. Debora

    Debora Well-Known Member

    I'd be suspicious as well. Sellers can't agree on material, age or origin.

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  15. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    I saw similar pieces, only Romanesque style, in France in the 80s. They were resin, but nice quality. I bought a few small 'altar pieces' from the Little Sisters of Jesus (an order of French-Algerian origin), who attended the Gypsy pilgrimage in southern France. They can't have cost much, it was more of a sympathy buy.
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  16. all_fakes

    all_fakes Well-Known Member

    Exactly. And the difficulty in finding details is not what one encounters when searching for actual artists, or actual antiques; for those, one finds online references; collectors guidebooks; collectors clubs.
    But this is precisely what one finds when researching a modern decor item. There are no collector's guides for the items found in the import shops; and usually, no online catalogs from the manufacturers.
    And as AJ relates, it is entirely possible that shops in France or Italy or Serbia now sell, or recently sold, these items (and for me, 80s would count as recent). Nice-looking, well-done; but not ivory, and not old.
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  17. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    I'm not very skilled at photo enhancement, so this is my best shot at showing detail from one of the Subastas Imperio listings from my earlier post:


    They do describe it as having been 'inked'.
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  18. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    Just exploring:


    Attached Files:

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  19. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    I agree that all of these carvings seem suspect. The "signature" is unusually obtrusive, if nothing else. The only other occurrence of "fram" I can find is in Scandinavian languages, where it has the meaning of "forward" and similar words. "Seli" is similarly elusive. If it is an abbreviation I can only think of Seligman as a possibility - maybe Scandinavian, German, or Yiddish. :confused:

    Most of the Seli. Fram carvings are attributed to the 19th century. An article in the Encyclopedia Britannica on ivory carving notes that in the West:
    "In the 19th century, ivory came into prominence once more, chiefly for making forgeries of older, more valuable ivory objects."
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  20. 2manybooks

    2manybooks Well-Known Member

    That one does look like ivory.
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