Middle Eastern Copper Dish / Test Results

Sorry guys if my listing it rubbed you the wrong way.. Since the test today, I edited the listing to copper instead of bronze.

I am not sure it makes a bad guy who wants to learn about a piece even though I listed under the belief of being Achaemenid Empire. If those who actually collect and have knowledge of ancient copper show no interest in the listing, then no harm no foul..

As inexperienced as I am with any kind of bronze. Middle Eastern, Islamic and Persian/Iranian influences stand out to me. I really just want to use what ever science I can afford to point me to a Middle Eastern copper dating.

I really just wanted to simply start with dating the copper for now and go on to correctly identifying an exact Middle Eastern description from there.

I will bow out and continue trying to find out the metallurgy meaning to the test results and if those numbers give any support at all towards the copper being as old as Achaemenid Empire or if it points to a newer period.

Take it easy..

 

Copperware is traditional to Iran. The other countries in the region mostly use brass.

I have never seen it either. Nor have I seen any with Islamic motifs.
It looks like a later dish that has had a hard life. The central star motif puts this in an Islamic period.
I don't see any reason to call this a libation dish either, since Muslims don't offer libation to any Gods.

Yes, Safavid until now. There was an hausse of decorative tinned copperware in the 19th century, due to the shortage of silver in Persia.

This isn't bronze, it is tinned copper. I don't know why you want an expert on Middle Eastern metallurgy, when it is the style that should be looked at first.

Of course you did.
It was once a beauty, it now has minor historic value, but not to the extent that a true Achaemenid dish would.

My father was a metallurgical historian/archaeologist. He used his eyes first. If something didn't look Achaemenid to him, he wouldn't try to prove it was.

 

I think you passed over or ignored most of what I have written in my posts Any Jewelry.

I will start again..

I do not know for sure yet if this is actually Achaemenid. The rose with eight petals, eight petals, and eight pointed star goes back much earlier in Middle Eastern history and much later as well. https://www.essaouira.nu/art_symbols.htm

I have yet to pin this piece down to a specific Middle Eastern region, but my two cents worth is that it is Persian. When I look at ancient tile work https://tinyurl.com/yc3e7jfq or ancient stucco examples https://tinyurl.com/y78zkcbk I see similarities. But that is just me.. The reason I posted my dish to begin with was solely to learn about what the results for the XRF test mean in regards to better dating it based on the metals content.

I said that I have read that there are examples of copper wares covered in tin. Scroll down to "Tin Coated Copper Bowls". http://members.westnet.com.au/gary-david-thompson/page9n.html

"Small hemispherical tin-copper bowls date from the late Sasanian period and early Islamic period. Tin coated copper bowls were popular with villagers in Asia Minor during the Ottoman period (from the 16th-century CE to the early 20th-century. Tin coated copper bowls were produced in Iran circa 16th-century. During the earlier Islamic period of the Mamluk period (circa 1250 to 1520) tin coated copper items were abundant.) Perhaps the most likely date falls within circa 200 CE to 1200 CE. Early Arab-Islamic iconography can be surprising. " But even with knowing this, I still do not know if my piece is coated with anything. It could be an oxidation, it could be coated, I do not know. The test and the person doing the test said they could not differentiate between surface oxidation and the base copper.

There are a great many reasons to call this a libation dish. Take your pic https://tinyurl.com/ydc9gc3v Most fall within a 5" to 7" diameter with low 1" profiles like mine. Some have a hollow, rounded, raised boss, known as an omphalos, some do not, mine has a foot rim, which I can not find on others. I can not explain the differences.

Small ones like this were used for holding wine during rituals and ceremonial settings as part of sacrifice or worship, both to God and pagan.

I was corrected about thinking it was bronze as a result of the XRF test. It is not "tinned copper" as you suggest. There is zero tin.

The test revealed:
98% copper
1% lead
Less than 1% iron

I would like an expert on Middle Eastern metallurgy because the piece shows signs of Middle Eastern artwork, which came to me after "using my eyes first", combined with the fact that there are known Achaemenid libations of copper as well as bronze. And I repeat, "to learn what the XRF results might indicate about the coppers age. If it is old or made yesterday.

 

"...I do not know for sure...". A person would not have known that looking at your sale listing yesterday. But looking at it now, I see you've edited it to be more in line with your expressions here. I'm glad you did that. I hope you are able to find out more about your piece.

 

In looking at the surface texture, it appears to have been applied that way, and not eroded to that. I have doubts even as to the "pre-1800" date of this and doubt it to be a "libation" bowl either. Do you still have a copy of the original ad you purchase this from, or the seller's info? ..I think you bought a fake..

But this is just my opinion.

 

Very condescending, george. In spite of your attitude I will explain the sites and symbols you quote.

I know the Essaouira site well, it deals with symbols from the Moroccan Islamic period as well as other religions in Morocco and indigenous Berber symbols. The Islamic symbols were introduced by the Arab invaders of North Africa, who were mostly from present day Syria.
It does not deal with Achaemenid symbols, nor does it pretend to.

Quotes from the site:
"By the middle-ages, the eight-point star is widely used as a symbol in Islamic art. It is called khatim or khatim sulayman, seal of the prophets, as in signet ring. The phrase “seal of the prophets” is also used in the Koran and has particular ideological meaning for Muslims. Moroccan zillij artisans also refer to the eight-point star as sibniyyah, sabniyyah, which is a derivative of the number seven sab’ah."

"The eight pointed star (Khatim) is prevalent throughout most of the Muslim world. It can be seen on flags, mosques, and Qurans.

This is not really a symbol of Islam per se. But Muslims have always used geometry and shapes to express themselves artistically. This is mostly because Islam generally looks down upon drawing, painting, or sculpting images of living creatures.

So Muslims of the past used Arabic calligraphy and shapes to create beautiful Islamic designs. The 8 pointed star is a result of this."

The star motifs on that search page are from the Islamic period, which is only considered ancient by search engines, not by historians.

That page shows designs in early stucco work from which your design evolved. An evolution takes time. They are not the same as yours.

The only one on that page which looks like yours, is yours. None of the others look like yours.

Search engine results are never proof of anything, btw.

If there is zero tin, it isn't bronze. It is copper. Not tinned copper, as I thought because of the top layer, but simply copper which has had a hard life.

Yes it does, no one disputed that. But to jump from Middle Eastern artwork in general to the Achaemenid period is wishful thinking.

I am sorry you weren't acquainted with Islamic art before, it is beautiful. But now you are, because that is what your dish is. It is an interesting dish, but not Achaemenid.

All early civilisations after the Palaeolithic period used copper. The motifs are Islamic, as you already pointed out by quoting the Essaouira site, so it isn't a libation dish.

 

AJ, you have such a good brain, thank you for all the work you do.
Commendable your abilities to articulate facts and your charming sense of grace gives relief, thanks.

 

Any Jewelry,

Thank you very much for a lengthy and educational post. I know crap about bronze, let alone Near Eastern Art.

One of my character defects is that I tend to search out and see what I want to see. I am aware of it, and try not to let it guide me when researching. Especially areas that I have no knowledge. I am aware of it, but sometimes it still gets the best of me.

I am way ok with my dish not being Achaemenid. Truth is that everything aside, I just really enjoy a good mystery, even though I get caught up in the moment at times. This has been and still is a fun mystery.

I did not mean to try and push that it is Achaemenid, even though it came out that way.

Like you said, it is at least an interesting piece.

Thank you again for your patience and taking the time with me.

 

Thank you Bronwen, I will look for this.

George, this looks etched from the casting. If copper is the content, where is the overall green patina? Granted it is there in very small bits on the front, but when compared to the examples, and all "tests" aside, yours doesn't look like copper? This part looks etched as a part of the design, and not so old with no patina:



looks more like bronze to me?

 

Hi Antidiem..

I don't know that we can put the test aside. It is the only science information that I have so far. I can't ignore the results. So I can not answer why it looks like bronze to you. I think that what you are seeing and describing as etching may be the result of someone having cleaned this and that the pitting shown is the results of removing a heavy encrustation, revealing a diseased and pitted appearance.

Here is coin example that looks similar to the surface of my dish.



The website has some good reading about patinas. https://www.metaldetectingworld.com/cleaning_coin_p3_patina.shtml

I am just now starting to read through it. There is a lot of information and additional links to read through.

 

Thanks, anti.

 

Thanks, George, for showing me the coin, the pitting on the coin looks more like the pitting on the front of your bowl, which is more of the appearance I would expect. I guess I think the front is more believable than the back.. At least there exists some green copper patina there, makes no sense why that part of the patina would have stayed in some cleaning process, but nothing in the pits on the back. I don't know why the metals test shows copper, but let's say it's copper that was somehow washed to be cleaned.

The decoration on the front of the bowl was made intentionally to look "off" or "crooked". I suppose it could be argued that the bowl had a utilitarian purpose, perhaps not all artisans were fine artists, but I disagree. The edges were designed to look asymetrical rather than symmetrical in design, they are off, looks like chicanary to me, and the amount of bad art there makes it unbelievable.

I will check your link later, thank you.

Apologies, for I am not more delicate in my presentations and if I sound rude, I don't ever mean to..

 

View attachment 259746 It didn't get dropped so many time to dent like this. This is the part that appears to have been made crookedly-

 

Test

 

Think that I finally have a good description for this.

Near Eastern, Safavid/Ottoman Empire, Persian/Turkish Copper Bowl, dated 17th to 19th century.

I think there is a good chance that part of the motif takes after Turkish/Persian Hamam (bath ) architecture.

https://tinyurl.com/y99kdvom

https://www.atelier-pummer.com/en/projects/detail/hamam-126/


Found a few Savid / Ottoman Empire copper plate and bowl examples dated 17th through 19th century with similar motif.

Click on image to expand.

 

Do you have proof of that?

Sorry, no relationship at all. Arches and flower petals have vaguely similar shapes, but I would never say a daisy was modeled after a Gothic cathedral or after a Gothic window.

 

Any Jewelry,

Thank you. The relationship between the arches was just a thought after seeing hamam bowls with motifs that seem inspired by architecture.

As for proof that that mine might be dated 17th to 19th. One of the very important things I depend on when researching a piece an dating, is the comparison of motifs to other known period pieces. I think the similarities between the two known Ottoman and Safavid copper examples in the above post are fair comparisons.

Here are two more bowls in silver.

 

I found this porcelain plate interesting when comparing and explaining the possible inspiration for the motif on my piece and others shown above with these same arches, or scalloped panels with ornamental plant motifs.

Iran, 7th century, blue and white plate with architectural imagery.

Most of the rim is decorated with arched or scalloped panels copied directly from the designs used in the Chinese export porcelain known in the seventeenth century as ‘Kraak’ ware. Chinese export porcelain was extremely popular and influential in Safavid Iran, where local potters were swift to respond to the competition by creating similar fritware objects with derivative designs.

The ornamental plants and trees, growing from the ground around the rim or, in one panel, from pots, show some borrowings from Chinese ceramics (particularly evident in the scrolling vegetal designs in the narrow panels) but also relate to Iranian and Indian painting traditions.

Reference, chapter 15 Academia.eu: Treasures of the Aga Khan Museum Architecture in Islamic arts.
https://www.academia.edu/7471091/Treasures_of_the_Aga_Khan_Museum_Architecture_in_Islamic_arts

 

Sorry I am late to this party.
If you want to find technical information about ancient and historic art and objects, a good place to start is Art and Archaeology Technical Abstracts (AATA), a database maintained by the Getty Institute,
https://aata.getty.edu/primo-explore/search?vid=AATA

Some references generated by a search for Islamic metalwork:

Gunter, Ann C., and Jett, Paul. Ancient Iranian Metalwork in the Arthur M. Sackler Gallery and the Freer Gallery of Art. Washington DC: Arthur M. Sackler Gallery, 1992.

Bakhshandehfard, Hamidreza, Mortazavy, Muhammad, Roig Picazo, Pilar, Bernal Navarro, Juana C., Moltó Orts, Maria Teresa, and Nebot Díaz, Esther. "Study on Tin Coating in Copper Objects Belongs to Islamic Periods in Iran." 17th International Meeting on Heritage Conservation: 20-22 November, Castellón, Vila-Real, Burriana, 2008: Preprints of the Papers to the Congress. Valencia: Generalitat Valenciana. Conselleria De Cultura I Esport. Fundación De La Comunidad Valenciana La Llum De Les Imatges, 2008. 513-516.

Craddock, Paul Terence. "The Copper Alloys of the Medieval Islamic World-inheritors of the Classical Tradition." World Archaeology 11.1 (1979): 68-79

La Niece, Susan, Jett, Paul, Douglas, Janet G., McCarthy, Blythe, and Winter, J.W. "Medieval Islamic Metal Technology." Scientific Research in the Field of Asian Art: Proceedings of the First Forbes Symposium at the Freer Gallery of Art. London: Archetype Publications, 2003. 90-96.

 

Thank you Zmanybooks !