Some mystery flatware 800 or plate?

For years I have had this four-piece place setting kicking around, thinking it was hotel (monogrammed) silver-plate. TO my surprised, by chance this morning I found 10/11 more pieces of each in the bottom drawer of a silver chest that holds another service. And these pieces are confusing me……… of course I now doubt that they are hotel ware, only having one relative that lived in an hotel (the Plaza, which these are not) and as disreputable as some relatives were, I can not see them stealing a service for 12 from a hotel.

12 x Teaspoon = 5.50”

12 x Hollow handle knife = 7.75”

12 x Soup/tablespoon = 7.25”

11 x Fork = 6.75” (ticks me off -one missing)

All pieces with the exception of the soup spoons, are on the small size, in a previous era this would have been called a luncheon service.

The knives are unusual in that the blades are silver/silver plate, not steel or stainless, but they do have a honed cutting edge. (I’ve had/used knives such as these before, believe that that they were pre 1900)

Both the spoons and the fork have “rattail” (?) attachments on the handles.

The front of the soupspoon bowl has a “flat” rim that I don’t recall seeing on soupspoons before – only (large) dessert spoons – could these be dessert not soup?

The marks are what really get me confused as all pieces, while identical in pattern & size, do not have the same marks:

Majority = B&B with a little 3 towered castle?

Some = 800 with a tiny crown

Some = 800 K&S

1? = SIMON with a little 3 towered castle?

1? = HESP with a little 3 towered castle?

These show no plate wear (if they are plate) and the only real wear is the stamped marks are worn down on some pieces.

BTW – these are research photos (sorry for the quality), not listing photos………..not sure if this is worth listing!

Any suggestions, information or even opinions (regarding pricing??) are welcome……………….My next task is to figure out where these came from. So many women married into the family and brought “heirloom” silver that I may never get it figured out……………………….and all I get from this monogram is the P………………

 

I'm pretty sure they are all from Europe. Anything with an 800, for sure.

 

The ones with the 3 towers are Danish.

https://www.925-1000.com/dm_menu.html

 

None of them are plated, although the blades of US knives in the pre-1900 period are often plated instead of solid. Not sure if this would be true outside the US.

 

The one with "the tiny crown" may be German instead of Danish. Can we see a picture of the mark?

 

The front of the soupspoon bowl has a “flat” rim that I don’t recall seeing on soupspoons before – only (large) dessert spoons – could these be dessert not soup?

my folks Indian Head ( International ) set had the lip too.....(1950..)
& I have the lip on Birks sugar spoons...

Both the spoons and the fork have “rattail” (?) attachments on the handles.

Beavertail ?

 

Doh! I thought I had included that one as well, but obviously.................THWACK! for Mansons...............I will photo and up load in a few - I'm actually on "standby" for my postman and don't want to go too far from the door - and everything in this place is half a city block from everything else....................

Danish, huh? Wonder how THAT happened. Maybe if I offer them to the Danish government they will give us Greenland in exchange? I don't think demanding it worked out very well...........................

 

I have pieces with that "flat rim" too. I doubt it was unique to a specific place or company.

 

I'm confused about your reference to "Indian Head" as a pattern in the International Silver family. There is no pattern named Indian Head that I can find any reference to. Why do you call it that? Because of the International logo?

 

It could just be me, but the Danish 3 towers mark does not look like the mark on these. These look more like a "hump" or upside down U with a tiny star in the void, topped with a flat bar supporting three towers - though I do think the towers have the same "onion" domes as the Danish mark. Is this a variant, am I seeing things (4th photo down for reference), or would these even be marked as such if 800 and not sterling???

As for the tiny crown mark, believe it or not I DID include it - it is the 7th photo, bottom spoon. It is to the left of the 800 - both the crown (very worn) and the 800 appear to be in parentheses or some other enclosing marks. I can't get a better photo of the crown, even (this was taken with the macro setting). And I just realized it is only on one teaspoon, none of the other pieces. Maybe it is another mark, just so worn that it appears to be a crown.

 

The problem then is the amount of wear on that last pic. It looks blurry to me and I was hoping that a straight on focused picture would reveal something more.

I have also been second guessing my original Danish ID - for 2 reasons - there are no assayer marks to go with the towers, and 800 was not a Danish standard. But I also agree that there is something off about the towers themselves - no dates below and no circular cartouche.

 

NOT DANISH! Hamburg Germany!!

https://www.925-1000.com/Fger_hamburg_01.html

 

Yay! Brahmfeld & Gutruf! But no assay mark? grrrrrrr. But none necessary on 800? A'cause it ain't sterling?

by the way - you rock!

 

That is what I was thinking - along with the SIMON - two different retailers, possibly replacement pieces - maybe the garbage disposal got hungry? Or the maid made off with a utensil to go spooning?

 

Before 1886? when the national system came into effect. (I assume you were expecting the crescent moon and crown?) These pieces are older with the possible exception of the 7th photo.

 

Check out the complete list on that Hamburg page - Simon is there, plus B and G. BB, etc.

 

ANd wouldn't you know it............the only sold I find for Bramfeld & Gutruf is for n empty box...................

 

Oh - do the missing marks indicate that these are pre-1886? I wasn't expecting anything -cause this is one area I know nothing about. Absolutely nothing! But y'all are educating me swiftly and I thank you for it!