Swiss World War 1 uniform plus cap, what can you tell me?

Neighbors were thinking of donating this set to a theater company, but thought I should run it by the board first in case this is an item they should consider selling. It is in amazing condition. I see a repair or two, but no moth holes, all buttons there. Also really little or no fading on the exterior, I took these photos outside and got a bit too much light, colors are pretty dark and solid on the fabric in real life. It belonged to the grandfather of my neighbor who is Swiss and 75 years old so there is provenance. All info much appreciated, thank you. There is both a hat and coat, will start w/photos of the hat:

 

The hat fell off the head of one of the toy "Nutcracker Suite" soldiers during the March of the Toy Soldiers.

Found the following similar hat that the seller dates WWI era. Of course that is no proof it is from that era and more importantly, Switzerland never participated in any of those wars - it was neutral. This style of hat actually was used in military engagements dating back to the Napoleonic era, but this hat certainly isn't that old. The seller called it a Tschako style hat. To me it looks more like a Shako style hat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shako

Here's another that the seller calls a Shako hat dating it 1890-1920.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/swiss-military-shako-kepi-headgear-helmet-army

Here's an interesting page on a Swiss infantry hat dating from the era of WWI. Your hat is not identical in shape. The one on this page is in the Tschako style while I feel yours is in the Shako style. Anyways it has info on the significance of the pompom and round cockade on the front of the hat. Scroll down about 2/3rds of the way. There are pics of what the colors of the pompoms and cockades on the front of the hats/caps represents. The red and black cockade is for Bern. Not sure what the green pompom represents on the manual page on the right. The description above the manual pages says:
"...the solid green pompom on an infantryman's cap (as on the one I have) means that the soldier was serving in the 1st Company of his battalion."
This may mean the same for the pompom on this hat.
http://www.switzerland1914-1918.net/blog/swiss-infantrymans-cap

--- Susan

 

BTW, found that Speyer, Behn & Cie was formerly Mohr & Speyer. Speyer, Behn & Cie were making uniforms in the 1890s.

--- Susan

 

Susan, thank you for the help with this. The hat does look like it fell off a nutcracker in the Nutcracker Suite! It is really a little work of art with that pompom, etc. Seems to have some kind of animal fur on the exterior. A lot of work went into it. The hat you linked on Worthpoint was a dead ringer. I don't have an account so couldn't see what it sold for, at the moment there aren't any on Ebay I could find, but maybe one will turn up. I have a feeling the owners might ask me to sell this set on Ebay, would be good to know (roughly) what the value of either coat or hat might be. Does anyone have an approximation on that?

On thing I noticed on the size of the coat as well as the hat, the size is tiny! Arm length and coat length pretty average sized but through the shoulders, incredibly small. Same with the hat.

Thanks!

 

Came across a better website showing Swiss military uniforms: Tunics, Hats, insignias, etc. with better explanations. I just looked at your hat again. I now think it is a Tschako rather than a Shako because has a double-like bill/visor front and back. According to the following site, the jacket and hat do look like they date c1900 plus or minus 10 years. According to the following site:
Piping:
Scarlet: Infantry, artillery, engineers, fortress troops and supply.
Crimson: Cavalry, general staff, cyclist
I don't know if the piping on this jacket would be considered scarlet or crimson.

Buttons and rank insignias:
White: Infantry, Cavalry, Medics
Yellow: Carabiniers, Artillery, Cyclists
The buttons on your uniform seem to be yellow.

Infantry Pompom - company:
It is hard to be sure of some of the colors. Green could be Infantry - Catering or Fortress Troops - Observer.

Round cockade/Canton Badge is the same as on that other site: Red and Black for the canton of Bern.

The cross rifles on the hat is the insignia for the fusiliers and carabiniers - branch of service.

The number on the hat is the battalion number - 24th Battalion.

The 3 silver cords around the hat may mean catering???

I'm not sure what the 2 buttons with crosses on the shoulder represent. It could for a 1st Lieutenant??? As there are no rank insignia/strips on the arms of the tunic I suspect it is the tunic of a private but with the 2 buttons on each shoulder, I just don't know.

With all the above, I'm not sure just what military rank or branch of service; however, am leaning towards Cyclist because of the crimson piping and yellow buttons. According to the following from the same site, cyclists were Bicycle units, the "infantry’s main reconnaissance units." Then again Artillery is a good possibility because they had scarlet piping and yellow buttons.

"Fusiliers
96 Battalions + 96 Landwehr Battalions
Fusiliers are the bulk of the infantry and as such the whole Swiss Army. Recruits chosen to this trade have to be in good physical shape to manoeuvre in the difficult Swiss terrain.

"Carabiniers
8 battalions + 8 Landwehr battalions
In the infantry recruit school the best shots were selected to join carabineer battalions instead of the fusiliers. A number of them were former cadets or members of the numerous shooting societies.

"Machinegunners
Swiss army machinegunners were issued with the MG 11, a water-cooled weapon based on the Maxim machine gun and close parent of the German MG 08.
Machinegunners formed separated battalions at divisional level in 1912. In 1916 individual companies were incorporated in fusilier and carabinier battalions. A year later they adopted their own Tschako badge to replace the former crossed-rifles infantry one.

"Bicycle units
Cyclists were the infantry’s main reconnaissance units. Bicycles were seen as fast and relatively manoeuvrable in difficult terrain and as such quickly adopted by the army. The model 1905 bicycle remained in use until 1990.

To see all the pics of the above, scroll about a 1/3th of the way down the page to message #394 "The Swiss Army in 1914-1918". Go to the 6th section of that message and click all the Spoilers "SHOW" white squares. Also scroll to the next section "Combat branches and units" and see the sections of Infantry and Artillery clicking any Spoiler "SHOW" white squares.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?398692-WW1-RESEARCH-THREAD/page20

--- Susan

 

Wow, Susan. Thank you! A lot of info, quite interesting. The son has been showing me this uniform (would have been his great grandfather's) when his dad returns in a few days, I'll see what history they knew exactly.

Quick note, the buttons are a silver color from the front. My photos didn't show this well -- the backs are yellow brass but the front some kind of silver, so maybe that would match up with the "white buttons"?

I'll take another look at the piping color next time I see it.

Thank you!

 

I'm just catching up with a few old threads that I didn't read carefully the first time around. Lucille, did you ever find out what they know about the history of this? Did they ask you to sell it? (You indicated that they might.)

As usual, Susan did a great amount of research and found some good information!

 

As usual, Susan did a great amount of research and found some good information!

Agreed, Susan is amazing and wonderful. (...Susan if you are reading this, thanks again for all of the help!)

Spoiler: The uniform went back in the closet of the neighbor's house --to my great relief.

It was a situation I'm sure many folks can relate to.

1) Neighbor learns that you sell antiques and collectibles on Ebay.
2) Has "something" to show you.
3) You go over, unless its something you deal in, you have no firm idea of value, but depending on the item, might have a sense it is worth researching.
4) You don't really want to sell it for them, but now you feel you need to at least give them some idea of what they have since they are a neighbor.
5) Spend several hours researching, inevitably it is a complex research project.
6) In the end, talk them into keeping it!*

*Don't want to take a chance selling something for a neighbor (with FEW exceptions). Something goes wrong=awkwardness with a neighbor.

I do like learning about items, but do have a fairly strict rule about selling for others, so was glad when they just "decided to keep it." This also had family ties, who knows a grandson might want it someday.

 

Thanks for the update... and also the information on what can occur. I don't sell online, so I don't run into this situation.

 

Back when Ebay was getting started, a friend who was much more experienced with antique sales, etc. counseled me to avoid selling stuff on behalf of others (much better to buy it outright and then do the selling yourself.)

I went ahead an broke my own rule with a good friend (happens to be a lawyer) about 10 years ago. He had something he wanted to sell -- a pair of opera glasses from his mother's estate. Told me, "I don't care what they sell for and you can keep the money."

They were a nicer pair, but nothing crazy valuable, and as I recall they were in somewhat rough condition --but still brought $50 (In today's market you'd be lucky to get $20.)

But when the $50 came in, my friend totally freaked out because he thought they should have sold for a lot more! In fact, they had exceeded expectations compared to others selling.

Don't get me started....

And why should he care? He told me to "keep the money". And this is a totally reasonable person on average.

That's when the words for my good friend came back in my head.

I know people have consignment stores and do this all the time, but one-on-one with a personal friend, with very few exceptions, I tend to avoid.

 

Lucille, that sounds like a wise path. I'm a person who refuses to lend money to anybody. I will sometimes *give* money to family members (not friends, though). ... if I can afford it at the time.

 

Hi,
I used to sell a lot for other people but they were the kind that thinks nothing has any value so they were happy, except for one, I sold a bowl to a well known Hollywood actress for a little over a 100 bucks. He said she is rich so should have paid a lot more, the going rate for the bowl was 75 dollars so I was pleased. He spoiled the deal for me so I never sold anything for him again.
greg

 

I've had several similar situations selling for others and I refused to do it and then did for a family member and had the same bad experience. No matter if you print out the fees for listing and don't charge for your time, they still think you're either incompetent or ripping them off. They don't realize that the high prices some folks list for will never be realized and they don't want to believe you when you try to show them the actual sale price. They also don't believe that some folks use shill bidders to jack up prices. It's a mess and I'll never do it again.

 

I've heard this over and over. It can work in certain settings, but it always blows my mind that a logical well educated person does not understand that "asking price" means absolutely nothing. Only "sold" does. This is not rocket science, folks! Maybe it harkens back to people being used to B&M retail settings. Take a car lot for example. A car might be over priced, but not by tens of thousands of dollars (usually). But on Ebay, the sky is the limit, maybe people are thinking -- wow, if it is listed at $2,000, it must be something close to that. I'll never forget there was a used amber necklace at a consignment store for $20. I got home and found the same one on Ebay (unsold) for $10K! I quickly did a lot of research, turns out $20 was about right.

Speaking of consignment stores, we have one that prints and posts Ebay auctions of similar items they have on the floor. But they show the asking price, these are not completed auctions. Usually for things like LLadro. Every time I see a $500 Lladro auction posted I feel like they are insulting my intelligence, or worse, some shopper who doesn't understand Ebay will be mislead.

Going back to my lawyer story, forgot to add, I insisted we donate the money. I was never planning to keep it, even from the get-go. But lesson learned. Even with a donated item... things may go south when selling for others.

 

just a small addendum to that uniform, which by itself is not interesting to me. if you wonder about the size: there were Kadettenkorps. in connection with the initials CvM it points towards a well-to-do family because the small v is "von" and points towards pseudo-gentry aka napoleonic military titles (or simply mercenary titles for hoodlums)

 

"or worse, some shopper who doesn't understand Ebay will be mislead."

I could fill a whole thread with stories where this happens................