Wondering what I have if anything. Nice carved wood piece made into coat hanger.

One wonders WHY the Witch didn't convert fragment in this way rather than mutilate it, it would have made it far more valuable.... just sayin

 

Meanwhile, back to the WAR!

Here is a Frisian spoon rack from the Netherlands sold a year or so ago here in the states.
Early 19th century, Netherlands, sold for $2500. USD



Here is an American spoon rack that was damaged and then converted to a wall shelf. Found at a Bergen County NJ estate several years ago, Dated 1700
Story at link, why can't i find stuff like this!? probably because i don't go to estate sales
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/210181-chip-carved-wall-shelf-possibly-repurpo





GAME, SET & MATCH! The american/dutch carving to me is better, much better.

 

That last one is a beauty. Lohrens Hartman, Frisian. Oak, no poplar. According to a certain J. Conrad oak would point to Dutch as well, just like the witch's coat rack.

Agree.

 

LOL, Oh Lord! using my OWN arguments against me!
We got oak in north america to ya know! just sayin.....
Yes, the Witch was not very creative on that fragment, no doubt!

 

If that piece were mine and I thought it American, would be doing genealogical research, looking for a 1700 union of 'Lohrens' and 'Hartman'...

~Cheryl

 

That would be a GOOD start Wink but, it would not be enough (for the marketplace) if you could verify "Lohrens/Hartman" family in NJ or NY.
Let us just say for arguments sake there WAS a family with that name with a history in that area, the market/buyers would ask, "How do you know they didn't bring it from the Netherlands when family immigrated? What evidence do you have that it was in fact carved here?"
When you start talking major dollars, collectors are pretty damn picky, as they should be.

 

It's still a valuable piece but, it does have a repair/modification sometime in 19th century and the uncertain origin.
So right away, we have gone from a piece potentially worth 10s of thousands down to a few thousands, collectors are brutal that way.
Still a gorgeous piece of Frisian carving, no matter where carved.

 

In this case, if the maker followed Dutch naming on objects, it is more likely that it was a man called Lohrens Hartman, probably the maker/owner.
Overhere, naming both partners in a marriage was usually seen on items with wedding symbolism. And of more expensive materials, especially in Friesland.

Edit:
Lohrens and other variations, like Lourens, is a very popular Frisian first name. Like the famous Frisian painter Sir Lourens (Lawrence) Alma Tadema.

 

Just edited the last post.

 

Bottom line on all this is, if you want the BIG dollars in the early american furniture world, there are a lot of hoops you gotta jump thru!

I don't see any changes!
OK, see it now, had to refresh!

 

Now if Wink did her genealogical research and found a history of this guy "Lohrens" in NJ and also that he was a woodworker/carver/joiner by trade and could prove it,
NOW WE ARE COOKING WITH GAS!

 

Having said all that, I'd guess the chances are that the estate sale spoon rack is most likely American.
Look at those spiral carved columns on either side of rack, i don't see those making that voyage, just to delicate.
Chances are it is american but, big difference in saying it VS proving it.

 

Dutch clay pipes made it across by the hundreds before the Dutch started making them in America, they are much more delicate.

 

Yeah, point noted but, I'd say there was a difference here.
The pipes were specifically packed to make that voyage by an importer VS
A single guy/single family with 1 trunk and literally EVERYTHING they owned.

 

Wrapped in clothing, bedlinen, etc.

 

LOL, UHHHHHHhhhhhhhh, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I WIN AGAIN! eat my dust!

 

That is the way people who travel do it, I have done it. I have packed waferthin ceramics in my holiday washing in a suitcase and it was without a crack or chip every time. I don't know if you've ever seen bagage handlers? Never a problem, you just have to know how to do it.
It is an age old craft.

 

Eh, my only real knowledge of carving is in Scandinavian wooden spoons, and that's only because I've spent countless hours studying them in particular - so I honestly have no idea of the origin of J.Dagger's item or the Lohrens/Hartman piece. But to address the latter piece, there is no provenance other than as stated, it was found "at a high end estate sale featuring primitive furniture and more", which would seem to indicate likely a collector, and really in no way suggests that the item had to have its origin in New Jersey or anywhere else in America, nor does it mean that if Dutch, that it was brought over here in an 18th century emigration (and I see no reason that it wouldn't survive the journey) rather than at any later point, including recently. Personally, believe AJ's suggestion of being a full name is more likely than that of commemorating a wedding - but if I wanted to prove it American, would still think that looking for the name/names in genealogical records would be the place to start.

~Cheryl

 

uhhhhhhhhhh, nooooooooooooo
You are talking about travel today, I am talking about travel in 1700, HUGE difference there.
A creaky, leaky immigrant ship overloaded with people & cargo, i am not buying it! unless a very specific (like your clay pipes) situation and i bet even with that there was considerable damage to pipes.
With a single immigrant & 1 trunk for everything he owned? NO WAY! with that spoon rack, he would have left that at home i am betting and not attempted that voyage with that object.

 

Another thing that many may not realize, travel in America was HORRIBLE in that time, the only exception was a single rider on horse back with saddle bags.
For ANYTHING else, like with a wagon, it was considered a MAJOR expedition for any travel at all, the "roads" were that bad. just sayin......